tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post5403390772877229694..comments2023-11-02T03:08:07.417-07:00Comments on NephiCode: The Meaning of Nethermost: Connecting the Dots in South America – Part IIDelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08982095508142923740noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-29902818466732890232017-10-26T08:19:23.854-07:002017-10-26T08:19:23.854-07:00If you study vineyards, the lowest part of the vin...If you study vineyards, the lowest part of the vineyard is not "the furthest from view", nor "the furthest", it is simply the lowest or farthest down.<br />The lowest part of the vineyard is the least desirable, as it has the poorest soil, the poorest drainage, less sunlight and poor airflow. All vineyards have their best harvest from the mid to upper parts of the vineyard. Therefore, the statement made by the master of the vineyard that he knew he had put the branches in the poorest part of the vineyard ratifies this understanding. Likewise, the parallel to the children of Israel is not to distance or compass orientation, but simply to the "quality" of place the children of Israel being sent to would have been.<br /><br />Your assumptions regarding distance and compass are really not relevant... the reference is clear when one understands the allegory being a vineyard.Definition mindedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10259280840158470363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-19432859031725255342016-02-29T10:24:28.922-08:002016-02-29T10:24:28.922-08:00Maps in the Middle East, including Israel, used ea...Maps in the Middle East, including Israel, used east as the top of their map; Egypt used south as the top of their map as did China. However, if you are referring to the article written about the view of the globe from space, we were referring to God's view of the Earth, and his orientation when being referred to by Zenos in the allegory, then from space, South America is the lowest (furthest south) livable land mass on the planet and appears that way on a globe--irrespective of the orientation of maps, the globe was and is always set up accurately, with north at the top, once globes became popular.Delhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08982095508142923740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-89139174376404765592016-02-29T07:31:36.967-08:002016-02-29T07:31:36.967-08:00How were maps situated in ancient Israel? I belie...How were maps situated in ancient Israel? I believe that North=Up=Higher is the (most?) common map style, but was it commonly used by Israel in that (admittedly large) time frame?Michael Richardsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08315787162790624190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-1039155251985384892016-02-28T12:24:09.113-08:002016-02-28T12:24:09.113-08:00And thank you for your insightful comment about th...And thank you for your insightful comment about the 10 tribes, etc. As I said, Zenos was an Old Testament prophet and would obviously have had the ten tribes and others of the House of Israel led away, like those into Egypt, etc. I appreciate the info and have filed it away in my RAM for future use if I get further into the Allegory beyond the Nephites.Delhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08982095508142923740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-76713397382012675892016-02-28T12:16:07.004-08:002016-02-28T12:16:07.004-08:00In your own comments you said it means lower. Chec...In your own comments you said it means lower. Checking the current dictionary says the same thing. But I think you've made a connection in your comments to South America that none of the other so-called scholars have. They all acknowledge that there were other people in Meso and North America. The BOM clearly states that there wasn't anybody else in the promised land and that I think is your connection and why you are correct. So as you say without going to far afield you've made the connection. The allegory makes perfect sense when you interpret nether as poor or lower. Otherwise the different branches cannot be identified correctly. Good comments and thanks for the correct definition of nether. It actually helped quite a bit. Iraiterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14836783863542965577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-72092003233426899382016-02-28T11:22:43.747-08:002016-02-28T11:22:43.747-08:00Your comment is very interesting. Thank you. The o...Your comment is very interesting. Thank you. The only problem is, the word "nether" does not mean or imply "poor" but "lower" and when applied to a geographical location it means "south" and "nethermost" means the lowest place, and in a geographical location, the furthest south.<br />Having said that, it should again be pointed out as we have written many times here, almost all scripture has depth of meaning that is not clear at first, and though a deeper meaning does not discredit the surface, simpler or other meaning(s), it just adds to greater understanding, which I think you have pointed out quite well.<br />Because of our unique readership, i.e., specializing in the Land of Promise and the location of the Nephite nation, etc., as it is found in the scriptural record, we try not to get too far afield. Our effort with the allegory was the connection to South America and Jacob’s use of it as it applied to the Nephites. Since he was quoting an Old Testament prophet, it would stand to reason that the allegory would have to do with more than the Nephites, and as you have pointed out so well, Zenos’ allegory was about much more of the House of Israel than just the Nephite branch.<br />Delhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08982095508142923740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-66426370092597643632016-02-28T10:49:08.933-08:002016-02-28T10:49:08.933-08:00One other comment I neglected to make which fits t...One other comment I neglected to make which fits the South American model. The reason that spot of ground in South America was so good is because there was nobody here. That of course contradicts the Meso and North American models. There were no other pagan/heathen people in South America to pollute them. The Lord was working with members of the House of Israel only and nourished them through prophets for a long time as it says. Thanks, Iraiterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14836783863542965577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-66309696266482753832016-02-28T10:33:20.802-08:002016-02-28T10:33:20.802-08:00Good comments about Zenos and who he was. He was l...Good comments about Zenos and who he was. He was likely an Ephraimite prophet living in Egypt after the time of Joseph. The records of the Ephraimite prophets were destroyed when they were taken into captivity at 721BC. The brass plates however did preserve some of their writings as we have here in the BOM. Good stuff!<br />Although this is an interesting Idea about nether I think you have it somewhat wrong. Your definition fits better as poor spot of ground (lower) rather or opposed to a good spot of ground (higher). This isn’t talking about geography in other words. I think one of the first things that needs to be understood about this allegory is what constitutes a poor spot of ground vs good ground. It isn’t the climate that makes a good place or a bad place. It is who else is present in those places that have the ability to pollute the Lord’s people. The Lord’s people in all ages of time when they are left to mingle among the local inhabitants who are either brought in (as in our case) or are transplanted to other places as in the case of the Jews and lost 10 tribes, the Lord’s people adopt the practices of those pagan/heathan people. This is called apostasy and this is why the tree decays. The Lord sends prophets to correct them. If they cannot be corrected then the Lord whacks off the dead branches and bad fruit, and destroys them. This has been the history of the Olive tree throughout history. <br />If you define nether as poor spot or lower then it all begins to make sense. What branches of the tree were taken to poor (nether) spot of ground therefore from the captivities of 721bc and 600bc? The Jews all 4,600 of them were taken to Babylon where they married the descendants of Shemite women to reconstitute the tribe. This was a poor spot of ground. The 10 tribes on the other hand were taken farther North into Assyria and finally into Eastern Europe and were mingled with the northern people and lost. Isaiah and Hosea speak about them and they will be coming from the steppes of Russia in the last days. They were settled in a very poor spot of ground for 2,700 years and will soon be brought out from that poor spot of ground. They are in complete apostasy now as the allegory says. <br />Here is a good example of what I am talking about Jacob 5:19-21 it says that the Lord went to the nethermost part of the vineyard vs 19 it was a poorest spot in all the land vs 21. Who were they? These were the ancient Jews taken into Babylon not the Nephites. Vs 23 says he planted branches in an even poorer spot of ground (10 tribes) because they were cast among a very pagan/heathen population where they eventually mingled among them and were lost. Ephraim of course mingled farther west into Western Europe – Germany, Norway, England etc. and were eventually gathered through the restoration. The other 9 tribes are still in the steppes and will be gathered later. <br />Now we get to the good spot of ground in vs 25. Notice that the Lord does not say that this is the neither spot but a good spot of ground. The Lord nourished it for a long time and only part of the tree brought forth good fruit (Nephites) whereas the other half of the tree (Lamanites) brought forth wild fruit. <br />There is much more to this allegory but your analysis is good start because I always thought that Nether meant North. It simply means poor or lower as you’ve mentioned. If you define it as I have done here then the entire allegory makes perfect sense and we can identify clearly who the 4 branches are that were broken off: vs 23 Lost tribes (poorest spot (nethermost); vs 20 Jews poor spot (also nethermost); vs 24 Mulekites Not nethermost; vs 25 good spot Nephites/Lamanites Not nethermost. <br /><br />Of course there is much more to discuss in this allegory but I wanted to stick just to the topic at hand. Thanks for the discussion. Ira<br />iterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14836783863542965577noreply@blogger.com