tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post78007413499268296..comments2023-11-02T03:08:07.417-07:00Comments on NephiCode: Back to Malay One Last Time – Part IDelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08982095508142923740noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-8890216514412732132017-06-05T14:57:23.845-07:002017-06-05T14:57:23.845-07:00Didn't you see the article written by Del a wh...Didn't you see the article written by Del a while back about metallurgy in the America's? Go read his stuff. Yes they had a high degree of metal workings in the America's. Del has already documented it for you if you would take the time to read his stuff. <br /><br />And yes I reject the 12,980 BC date completely. As I told you that is the reason you can't accept the South American model because you believe in an old earth and the idea that South America could not come up out of the ocean at the time of Christ. In that regard you do not believe in the scriptures when it tells you there was a world wide flood and th continent where the BOM people lived was changed. Even though that is what the record says you don't believe it because it goes against your uniformatarianism ideas. That is the source of the real problem here not anything else. I'm a geologist and went through the schools and was taught all their happy garbage. There are lots of problems with it that they can't resolve. It's a religion to these (secular) scientists. BYU is grouped in with them unfortunately. If they hadn't abandoned their belief in scripture they would know the truth of these things rather than running after the world. <br />iterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14836783863542965577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-8958884757416413242017-06-05T11:23:11.422-07:002017-06-05T11:23:11.422-07:00You have iron furnaces in South America dating bac...You have iron furnaces in South America dating back to 535 BC? I'd be interested to see where.<br /><br />People have been documented in South America from before 12,980 BC, but I know you reject anything that doesn't agree with your opinion. I wouldn't say that throwing out hard evidence makes your arguments "fit perfectly".Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03677339672381456270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-18100902212384357182017-06-05T11:08:54.044-07:002017-06-05T11:08:54.044-07:00So what! Del has shown that we have all those thin...So what! Del has shown that we have all those things in South America and so we don't need to look at Malaysia because other factors tell us that it is in the wrong place such as D&C 54. So why bother with a bunch of iron furnaces in Malaysia when you have them in South America? People have been documented in South America from 2,000 bc - the time of the Jaredites. So D&C 54:8 fits perfectly. It doesn't fit Malaysia. So for that fact alone - I reject your idea. <br />iterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14836783863542965577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-51961122296629012502017-06-04T11:54:32.668-07:002017-06-04T11:54:32.668-07:00Wanted to add this comment on the kolandiaphonta s...Wanted to add this comment on the kolandiaphonta ships which were said to be massive, 50 meters in length and stand out of the water four to five meters, and carry six to seven hundred people.<br /><br />https://www.evernote.com/l/AAgJtWQnCZ1BVrk_rz_ytrv2B0oFfaVvU_g<br /><br />And unlike other trading ships these kolandiaphonta were not coastal vessels. They cut right across the bay, through deep water.<br /><br />https://www.evernote.com/l/AAhzfzg3ypdIepaDVh3Ydww38CLlBtVTz2gUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03677339672381456270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-39605392595473023772017-06-04T10:24:35.261-07:002017-06-04T10:24:35.261-07:00Did you ever see any of those tables that say that...Did you ever see any of those tables that say that Semites settled in Chile? Or Peru?<br /><br />I think you have a double standard going on here, so its difficult to know how to proceed with this conversation.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03677339672381456270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-81808532859189643592017-06-04T10:23:19.905-07:002017-06-04T10:23:19.905-07:002. What proof it was the 6th century B.C.? Is this...2. What proof it was the 6th century B.C.? Is this an estimate or is there specific information (like in the first year of Zedekiah, etc.)<br /><br />The iron furnaces that were found in the area I propose as the Lehite landing site were dated back to 535 BC. This site is the oldest civilization on the Malay Peninsula, and it dates to within 50 years of when the Lehites would have reached the Promise Land.<br /><br />http://www.themalaymailonline.com/features/article/world-archaeological-experts-fascinated-by-sungai-batu-ancient-site<br /><br />3. What material found in the ground? How was it dated? who determined the dates, etc.<br /><br />Carnelian beads, pottery and other artifacts that seem to be closely related to items found in the middle east and near east <br /><br />Pierre-Yves Manguin, A. Mani, Geoff Wade<br />Institute of Southeast Asian Studies, 2011 - History - 514 pages<br /><br />https://www.evernote.com/l/AAjKZiH2CAlIILDbLaNY7DQhArXUZSgqh5k<br /><br />Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03677339672381456270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-49346749469994982162017-06-04T10:14:23.669-07:002017-06-04T10:14:23.669-07:00I have always supplied sources for my arguments. I...I have always supplied sources for my arguments. I will continue to do so. But this will most likely be in the format of a page or a book that is in a language you might not be able to read. In these cases I always provide the best translation I can, but I cannot translate the entire page and include it in the comments here. <br /><br />1. What experts do not agree? Names, sources, dates, statements, etc.<br /><br />Pierre-Yves Manguin, A. Mani, Geoff Wade<br />Institute of Southeast Asian Studies, 2011 - History - 514 pages<br /><br />https://www.evernote.com/l/AAiyK692Av9Np7CIP7hn7qepi8lQXWcT1j0<br /><br />Charles Higham<br />AC Black, Feb 28, 2556 BE - History - 144 pages<br /><br />https://www.evernote.com/l/AAhl3AjiMOxKybVYenigjD42mcFII2nR_uM<br /><br />The Chronometric Holocene Archaeological Record of the Souther Thai-Malay Peninsula - David Bulbeck - Australian National University, Australia<br /><br />https://www.evernote.com/l/AAjhUDQhBZZCDrKxZRxHx_YIlUA--tYLekU<br /><br />Now, when they refer to "Indians" they are referring to the area around Taxila in Pakistan, which appears to have been a refuge for Jews fleeing the Babylonian captivity. So it is not just my belief, but it is the history as provided by the Pashtun people who claim to be descendants of Israelites who were carried away to Afghanistan by Nebuchadnezzar:<br /><br />https://www.evernote.com/l/AAip6NHUi0dPjYNi654uvfeL-cjJH6iEzxc<br /><br /><br />History of the Afghans: Translated from the Persian of Neamet Ullah - Niʻmat Allāh - Oriental translation committee, and sold, 1836 - Afghanistan<br /><br />https://www.evernote.com/l/AAgF0oP16AZKv5KiIoBzQLtiWNcxAyZPlu0<br /><br />The Boundaries of Afghans’ Political Imagination: The Normative-Axiological Aspects of Afghan Tradition - Jolanta Sierakowska-Dyndo - Cambridge Scholars Publishing, Aug 11, 2557 BE - Social Science - 215 pages<br /><br />https://www.evernote.com/l/AAixrCYZfLlB8IZFJoDOQJicf7Ghxz6nLNU<br />Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03677339672381456270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-4949390452470227612017-06-04T09:53:54.394-07:002017-06-04T09:53:54.394-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Iterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281119992916618849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-5050193929546919272017-06-04T09:41:45.460-07:002017-06-04T09:41:45.460-07:00As to your June 4 9:25 post:
1. What experts do no...As to your June 4 9:25 post:<br />1. What experts do not agree? Names, sources, dates, statements, etc.<br />2. What proof it was the 6th century B.C.? Is this an estimate or is there specific information (like in the first year of Zedekiah, etc.)<br />3. What material found in the ground? How was it dated? who determined the dates, etc.<br />You make a lot of broad-ranging statements without anything to back them up. Please refrain from doing so without specific information that can be checked and verified, and I'm not talking about a copy of a book page no one can read.<br />Also,what you believe is not the issue here, but what can be compared effectively to the scriptural record, which in the case of the Mulekites; "And they journeyed in the wilderness, and were brought by the hand of the Lord across the great waters, into the land where Mosiah discovered them; and they had dwelt there from that time forth" (Omni 1:16) which suggest nothing of the kind about Iran/Afghanistan.<br />You do not have to agree with me. But it does seem that you should take the word of experts in the field that repeatedly and with great support say what I post. Your disagreement, after all, is with them, not with me--in this case, I'm just the "messenger." And we have posted on these pages in the past the names and sources of the Chinese writers who have made the claim of who first settled the Malay Peninsula.<br />Delhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08982095508142923740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-42522093850278634652017-06-04T09:25:25.839-07:002017-06-04T09:25:25.839-07:00I assure you I am reading what you write, I just d...I assure you I am reading what you write, I just do not always agree. As you say the dhow was only one type of vessel. There were others used in Southeast Asia that were much larger called kolandiaphonta. These were crossing the Bay of Bengal and were likely capable of deep sea voyages. It is speculation, but it is possible that the Lehites may have based their design on one of these kolandiaphonta. In any case, we don't know what kind of boat the Lehites were in. But to say that boat could not have sailed the short and direct route to the Malay Peninsula but surely could have sailed the long, never-been-done-ever, voyage to Chile is a tough argument to support.<br /><br />Historians do not say it was people from China that reached the west coast of the Malay Peninsula in the 6th century BC. The latest research says that these colonizers were from Iran/Afghanistan region. The materials found in the ground come from the region of Iran and Afghanistan. I believe the Mulekites followed other exiled Jews to this region and departed from there.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03677339672381456270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-9012397328376260922017-06-04T09:23:10.407-07:002017-06-04T09:23:10.407-07:00That's where you are wrong. We do know because...That's where you are wrong. We do know because of ancient genealogy tables that have been kept. I've seen a number of these ancient tables and the all say the same thing as to where the people's settled. By taking one Scripture of context and building an entire civilation out of thin air doesn't mean anything. Iterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281119992916618849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-21751244186036051552017-06-04T09:10:08.355-07:002017-06-04T09:10:08.355-07:00You write: "So no matter how many charts and ...You write: "So no matter how many charts and graphs we quibble over, the evidence of civilization arising on the Malay Peninsula at precisely the time the Mulekites and Lehites set sail is undeniable. We can argue whether that civilization was Israelite, but it can't be argued that this journey was impossible" showing me that you simply do not read what we write, or do not understand what is so simply explain time and time again. Trade, therefore shipping, took place all over the area in question from earliest times--what you miss is the type of ship being used. One is a dhow type vessel still in use, using a lateen sail, which allows for coast movement, not dependent upon deep sea sailing or more specifically being "driven forth before the wind." No deep sea vessel with a fixed sail requiring the wind behind them could make that voyage. That is the point. Lehi sailed in a fixed sail, "driven forth before the wind" vessel that Nephi built under the Lord's direction. That type of vessel is for deep ocean (blue water) sailing back in the time when these coastal vessels could not have sailed into deep water. <br /><br />As to who landed on the Malay Peninsula in the centuries you mention, Chinese historians have always maintained it was people from China. The fact they might have landed in 600 B.C. does not seem significant under these circumstances.Delhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08982095508142923740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-65216620291674314532017-06-04T08:34:14.751-07:002017-06-04T08:34:14.751-07:00Ira, I can appreciate your persistence on this mat...Ira, I can appreciate your persistence on this matter but we honestly don't know where the people of Shem or Japheth went. As I've mentioned many times here, there are early accounts that suggest there was a group of Semites that left the Middle East around the time of the Jaredites, and there are also accounts of a group of Kenites (Rechabites) leaving the Middle East around the time of the Lehites. <br /><br />There are countless accounts of Israelites settling in southern India, and they claim that their colonies stretch as far as the Malay Peninsula and up into China. Some even went as far south as Zimbabwe, and they have the J1 and T1 DNA to back up their claims to Jewish ancestry. As Del has mentioned, the scriptures do support the presence of many of Lehi's brothers scattered throughout the isles of the sea. <br /><br />2 Nephi 10:21<br /><br />"But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea; wherefore as it says isles, there must needs be more than this, and they are inhabited also by our brethren."Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03677339672381456270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-1590214214083317162017-06-04T08:09:02.107-07:002017-06-04T08:09:02.107-07:00Jay, the people that inhabit that peninsula are un...Jay, the people that inhabit that peninsula are undoubtedly descend from the Chinese. They are Oriental in origin and the ancient genealogy tables show that they descend from Japheth. That is also an undeniable fact that you continue to ignore. <br /><br />The people of Shem stayed in the Middle East. There is a difference between the Orientals which are called Asian and the Middle East Asians. The people of Malaysia are not descendant from Shem nor are they of the House of Israel. And no amount of linguistic studies can prove that. The model simple is wrong and does not fit in anyway way possible what the BOM describes. Give it up Jay - I doesn't work and has never worked. The scriptures simply do not support it. IRaiterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14836783863542965577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-75492732939537161172017-06-04T07:36:20.514-07:002017-06-04T07:36:20.514-07:00I appreciate your detailed comments, and I will co...I appreciate your detailed comments, and I will commit to researching this matter further. But there is always the undeniable fact that someone from the Arabian Sea arrived right in the middle of the Malay Peninsula to establish a civilization between the 6th century and the 5th century BC. <br /><br />So no matter how many charts and graphs we quibble over, the evidence of civilization arising on the Malay Peninsula at precisely the time the Mulekites and Lehites set sail is undeniable. We can argue whether that civilization was Israelite, but it can't be argued that this journey was impossible. The evidence is overwhelming that a sea voyage from the Arabian Peninsula or West India to the Malay Peninsula was possible in the 6th to 5th centuries BC. - JayUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03677339672381456270noreply@blogger.com