tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post8077865821810098676..comments2023-11-02T03:08:07.417-07:00Comments on NephiCode: More Difficult Traveling Through Indonesia – Part IIDelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08982095508142923740noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-16234480262045818452016-05-09T21:02:41.445-07:002016-05-09T21:02:41.445-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.iterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14836783863542965577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-79581841495785049372016-05-09T21:02:21.852-07:002016-05-09T21:02:21.852-07:00Very true - God does know everything after all. Si...Very true - God does know everything after all. Since Christ grew from grace to grace meaning He didn't know everything however I'm not so sure He knew all things at that time. Maybe He did however.<br /><br />When I was in the mission field back 40+ years ago we gave blessings and people were healed immediately. I did not know the process that would have been required to do the healing. To me it was simply a miracle. I had the authority of the priesthood to bless and the person or people I blessed had the faith. Both together made it possible for them to be healed. Was the healing done simply by God in that case who knew how to do it? Or did I having the authority able to perform the healing. Don't know - I'll have to ask some day. It certainly was a miracle to me. <br /><br />I know from Isaiah that when Moses raised his hands at the time of the Exodus that it was the Angel of the Lord's presence that divided the Red Sea. I don't know if Moses knew that or not. perhaps it is the same with us. Don't know - hopefully find out some day. iterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14836783863542965577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-5384849466538003572016-05-09T16:45:40.567-07:002016-05-09T16:45:40.567-07:00I think we are going to find that it is more than ...I think we are going to find that it is more than "be wine," but we have to understand how that transition takes place and involved in our thought process if not our command for that to take place. He knows what "little atoms jump where" and combine how and has that in mind when he make his command(s). And I think he most certainly does need to know the process so that he can order it to take place. “And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light. And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness” (Abra 4:3-4). “And the Gods also said: Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters. And the Gods ordered the expanse, so that it divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so, even as they ordered” (Abra 4:6-7). “And the Gods organized the earth to bring forth grass from its own seed, and the herb to bring forth herb from its own seed, yielding seed after his kind; and the earth to bring forth the tree from its own seed, yielding fruit, whose seed could only bring forth the same in itself, after his kind; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed” (Abra 4:12).<br />I see in this more than merely making a command. I see a great deal of knowleldge, understanding, and knowing exactly how it happens and that being part of the command, for I think the blade of grass or the seed, or the fermentation or the atoms, etc., must be told what they are to do before they will do it. I see God with an advanced knowledge of all these things so that when he commands, his commands are obeyed. The gods, after all, waiting to see that they were obeyed. While, as I've said, this is child's play to the Lord, it is far beyond what we know today--and even those small parts we may know, we do not know how to command, with faith, and be obeyed. So it is a miracle to us but a known fact of process to the Lord.Delhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08982095508142923740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-47845588038978767102016-05-09T10:12:34.100-07:002016-05-09T10:12:34.100-07:00That is my point exactly. Instead of being a chemi...That is my point exactly. Instead of being a chemist however Christ simply says to the water - be wine. The little atoms jump into action and convert themselves into wine. He didn't have to know the fermentation reaction, but only how wine tasted. BTW how do you ferment water? It was through his authority that it happened. Same is true of the sun and the moon at the time of Joshua. Instead of trying to explain it away as not a miracle but the hold over of some light for a long time. The Lord simply spoke and the sun stopped in the heavens. Since He has all power He stopped the earth or rolled it back. It did not cause great upheavals in the atmosphere nor the earth why? Because He controls everything by His power. So I think we agree on this point. It was a miracle and we don't need to look for a logical explanation because for us there is none other than the power of God. Iraiterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14836783863542965577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-90323738969969011572016-05-08T15:19:18.912-07:002016-05-08T15:19:18.912-07:00How about Christ simply being the greatest chemist...How about Christ simply being the greatest chemist that has ever lived, knowing exactly the fermentation, inoculating the juice with live yeast, when then carries out the fermentation reaction of C6H1206 → 2C2H5OH + 2CO2 (sorry, this program will not convert two types of script at one time) at the same time turning oxygen into carbon dioxide which oxidizes the phenols and the sugar and ethanol are converted to carbon dioxide and water. It is a simple process as every chemist knows—how to do it is another thing.<br />Then he simply removed the unwanted solids, salts and microorganisms, who all obey his voice and remove themselves. When the high biological oxygen demand is produced, he simply commands it to compost or otherwise dispose into other waste elements. Just because God works through commands and all things obey him is not really that different than we working with our hands and physically doing the same thing.<br />It is no different than removing a hill or mountain. The Lord speaks (or someone through the priesthood, like the Brother of Jared) and the elements of the earth making up the hill breakdown and move to another location, forming the same basic hill or mountain, or spread thinly over the ground to form a valley. It’s child’s play—you just need to know how to work through command rather than work it yourself—like commanding the big Earth Mover drivers to spread out the dirt from the mountain. Of course, they have to do it by hand, and the Lord does it by command, but the process is not all that different. Someday we will come to know that this is just child’s play when the elements all obey you. ☺<br />Delhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08982095508142923740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-20711147345815311032016-05-07T19:25:33.956-07:002016-05-07T19:25:33.956-07:00fair enough. We'll have to wait and see on som...fair enough. We'll have to wait and see on some of these questions. I often discuss this topic with a buddy of mine. He is always trying to come up with some explanation for the miracle in the scriptures. When he finds something that explains it he tells me - see God works through natural means. So the debate goes on. I believe in the miracles as they are. Christ turned water into wine by using His power. He didn't use chemistry. Your points are well taken however. Thanks, Iraiterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14836783863542965577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-75439241899151225892016-05-07T19:25:19.330-07:002016-05-07T19:25:19.330-07:00fair enough. We'll have to wait and see on som...fair enough. We'll have to wait and see on some of these questions. I often discuss this topic with a buddy of mine. He is always trying to come up with some explanation for the miracle in the scriptures. When he finds something that explains it he tells me - see God works through natural means. So the debate goes on. I believe in the miracles as they are. Christ turned water into wine by using His power. He didn't use chemistry. Your points are well taken however. Thanks, Iraiterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14836783863542965577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-4972314867300495672016-05-06T08:34:58.299-07:002016-05-06T08:34:58.299-07:00Continuing...
Evidently, there are some "phys...Continuing...<br />Evidently, there are some "physical laws that the Lord has to obey" according to Alma 42:13, or he would cease to be God...I don't begin to claim I understand what those are, but whatever laws that govern the Universe that God has set up evidently cannot be disobeyed, even by him, or violated. Still, to us, it would seem he can do anything.Delhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08982095508142923740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-34321449267459537862016-05-06T08:28:50.570-07:002016-05-06T08:28:50.570-07:00I guess my disagreement lies in what are and what ...I guess my disagreement lies in what are and what are not the "laws of nature." To me, they are far beyond our comprehension. To God, they are simply within his realm of knowledge. That man has placed a limit on what is "nature" and what is not does not make it so. We have seven children. When each was small, I used to perform "miracles" to them simply because I understood some scientific principles that were far beyond their knowledge at the time. To the aborigine, the gun is a miracle, to the kid, the cockpit of a the SR-71 is a miracle of gadgets he cannot even begin to comprehend,to our family doctor when we were a young family, the Priesthood Blessings I gave our kids were miracles for they "cured" them of maladies he could not always even diagnose. I don't think the Lord suspends the laws of nature--I think the laws of nature are so far beyond our understanding yet, that, as you say, the are "miracles" to us becusue we have no greater knowledge of the facts involved. But to the Lord they are just business as usual. Delhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08982095508142923740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-1699736564270403742016-05-05T14:27:04.971-07:002016-05-05T14:27:04.971-07:00This is a good discussion because many things you&...This is a good discussion because many things you've said of course are true of course. There are events that happen completely outside our experience. I do not believe however that Christ added anything to the water to make it wine. That was a bonafied miracle. When the brother of Jared said to mount Zerin remove - bulldozers didn't show up and start moving the mount. It was removed as he said. This completely defies the law of gravity. Same with the sun. I think it stopped and went back as the scriptures say. The sun was darkened when Christ died - same thing - it was a miracle and not an eclipse. Same with raising the South American continent - a miraculous event. But when people say that God changed the currents and wind that just isn't the case. Why? Because He didn't need to. The path was already laid out for Nephi and Lehi. The Lord simply had to lead them to the right spot.<br /><br />My conclusion is there are no physical laws that the Lord has to obey. To us they are called miracles. To Him it's just one of His commands to alter or suspend the laws of nature for whatever period He requires. We have a free agency however and that does come into play in many events. <br /><br />Thanks for the discussion. Ira iterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14836783863542965577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-12402914673200641362016-05-05T09:32:33.763-07:002016-05-05T09:32:33.763-07:00Actually, I never said the Lord worked within my l...Actually, I never said the Lord worked within my laws or your laws—but within his laws.<br />The points you make (and others can be cited) are not outside the laws of nature—we just don’t know how to do such things yet. They are outside our knowledge of them—however, they are not that I know of events that do not happen in their own method, sequence, or happenings under normal conditions based on the Lord’s superior knowledge. As an example, turning water to wine could be done with a slight variation in ingredients as has been shown by several chemists on this very point—not that it has been done, but they can see how it could be done. In Biblical days, moving a mountain was an impossible thing could not even be envisioned—however, today with big Earth Movers, mountains are moved all the time; and man has walked on the moon—several times, though at the beginning of the last century only science fiction was beginning to look at such possibilities. It is just a matter of perspective in what the Lord does that we cannot.<br />As for stopping the light, there is a great explanation as to what is meant by altering the light of the sun and moon and not the orbs themselves, in the days of Joshua, which we have written about. <br />Still, nothing is impossible for the Lord, but he seems to operate within a known concept, and though it might be unknown to us, they are still feasible within simple laws to him. Nuclear fission, etc., was unknown to man until this past century and unheard of by man much of the century before that. There was a time when a crossbow would end all war--nothing could ever be a greater weapon. They are within the simple facts of life as the Lord knows them. I doubt the Wright Brothers in their wildest imagination never envisioned man flying a supersonic jet fighter, or the Concord passenger liner, etc. Those evernts before their time woulfd haver been seen like we see some of the Lord’s actions today.<br />I see those types of things as very different than the things I refer to as not being done by the Lord. He seldom, if ever has demonstrated a tendency to do for man what man can do for himself—He may assist here or there, but he didn’t step in and wipe out Israel’s enemies the Midianites. He just stopped the ebbing of the light so Israel could continue to fulfill their assignment. <br />He didn’t step in and pick up the Lehi Colony and set them down in the Land of Promise—he just showed Nephi how to build a ship that would carry them there.<br />Could he have done so? Certainly, but there is no such evidence of anything like that ever happening outside of the process of visions and people finding themselves in areas they have never been, but always to be returned to where they were. The point is, when the sun went backward, it was for a purpose of which people had to do something (fight a battle) it was not the Lord simply defeating the enemy for them. Whatever the principles are the Lord works within, they seem to not eliminate the work and effort of people having to accomplish for themselves what needs to be done--the Lord simply assists.<br />This, then suggests to me that he will not operate outside of that principle. Can he? Yes. Will he. Evidently not.<br /><br />Delhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08982095508142923740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5948352943362975805.post-8879416522028323832016-05-04T12:37:26.529-07:002016-05-04T12:37:26.529-07:00Interesting comments. I have this argument with a ...Interesting comments. I have this argument with a buddy of mine all the time. He says that the Lord always works within laws as you've stated. I say fine - then explain to me clearly how Christ turned water into wine. There are conditions where miracles happened in the scriptures. Some of them were miraculous as in the case of Ahaz in Isaiah 38:8 - See, I make the shadow cast by the afternoon sun on the dial of Ahaz recede the ten degrees it has gone down. So the sun reversed its descent by ten degrees on the dial. <br /><br />My point is there were events in the scriptures that are outside of the laws of nature. Those are called miracles to us. We not only do not understand them but they can't even happen in our understanding. <br /><br />In the case of Nephi and Lehi however nothing is mentioned in the Book of Mormon that the Lord altered any natural event in their journey to South America. You've documented a course that is logical and correct in every aspect. Everything lines up and we don't have to resort to miracles to make it work. But that does not mean that the Lord works exclusively within natural law. There are countless examples where He does not. Good comments Del - enjoy them every much. Iraiterryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14836783863542965577noreply@blogger.com