A Look at a Mesoamericanist Rebuttal – Part IX

Concluding John R’s January 2014 rebuttal of our March 1, 2011 article series on Mesoamerica, we finally come to his rejection of South America out of hand. This is what he wrote:
     John R: “This all precludes that South America could be part of the Book of Mormon lands.”
    Response: How so?  South America, i.e., Andean Peru, etc., matches every description given by Mormon—all 65 are detailed in the book Lehi Never Saw Mesoamerica, and the major 27 items have been listed in these posts several times along with the scriptural references, and listed very briefly here as a reminder:

1) Mountains, “whose height is great” [Helaman 14:23]; 2) Two unknown animals [Ether 9:19]; 3) Two unknown grains [Mosiah 9:9]; 4) Plants that cure fever [Alma 46:40]; 5) Land of promise as an island [2 Nephi 10:20]; 6) The four seas surrounding the Land of Promise [Helaman 3:8]; 7) the Climate where Lehi’s seeds grew that he brought to the Land of Promise from Jerusalem [1 Nephi 18:24]; 8) Roads and Highways [3 Nephi 6:8]; 9) Driven before the wind to the promised land [1 Nephi 18:8-9]; 10) Lehi’s Course to the Land of Promise [1 Nephi 18:8-9]; 11) Both Gold and Silver and Copper [1 Nephi 18:25]; 12) Hagoth’s ships went northward [Alma 63:4,6]; 13) Forts, fortifications and resorts [Alma 48:5,8; 49:13,18; 52:6]; 14) Fortified walls of stone [Alma 48:8; 50:5; 62:23]; 15) Narrow neck of land [Alma 22:32; 63:5; Ether 10:20]; 16) Defendable narrow pass or passage [Alma 50:34; 52:9; Mormon 2:29; 3:5]; 17) the sea that divides the land [Ether 10:20]; 18) All manner of buildings [Mosiah 8:8; 19:5]; 19) Great temple tower [Mosiah 11:12]; 20) North-South directions of the Land of Promise [Alma 22:27-34]; 21) All manner of ore [1 Nephi 18:25; Ether 10:23]; 22) Land of Many Waters, rivers and fountains [Mormon 6:4]; 23) Abundant crop growth [1 Nephi 18:24; 2 Nephi 5:11; Mosiah 9:9,14; 11:15]; 24) No other people in the Land of Promise [*], 25) Use of silks and fine-twined linen [Alma 1:29; 4:6 26; Ether 10:24]; 26) Metallurgy [Helaman 6:9; Ether 10:23]; and 27) Volcanoes and earthquakes [3 Nephi 8, 9].
    For a brief but detailed description and explanation of the South American match of these 27 items, see the posts “So Where is the Land of Promise?” Parts 1 thru 12, posted between December 26, 2013 and January 7, 2014.
    It should be noted that John R., like John L. Sorenson, summarily dismisses South America without even a comment about it—just that it couldn’t be the Land of Promise. An interesting approach for a scholar and historian. Please note, that any time we show where Mesoamerica, the Great Lakes, western New York, Eastern U.S., Florida, Baja, Malasia, etc., do not match the Land of Promise, at least we spend some time showing why they do not match the scriptural record, and quote the scripture that supports that view.
    John R: “If Lehi never saw Mesoamerica, he was most likely blind.”
    Response: A clever comment; however, I stand behind the matches between Andean Peru (above) and the scriptural record (cited), including the shape, size and condition of this area in the time of the Nephites as has been listed on these pages numerous times, and invite any Mesoamericanist or other Theorists to show a similar or contrary match of their area to all these scriptural descriptions, without changing, altering, explaining away, or trying to make the scripture mean something else than what was written by Mormon in his plain and simple language.
    If Lehi did see Mesoamerica, then we need a new scriptural record, for the one we have cannot be shown to match the writings of Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, et all, in any way. Perhaps, after all, it is the Mesoamericanist who is blinded by their own beliefs and mantra.

It’s like the Three Blind Mice looking for the Land of Promise. They think they see a place, then turn a blind eye to the fact that it does not match the scriptural record, yet still loudly proclaiming they found Lehi’s landing site.
    John R: “One reason I’m in the Mesoamerican geographical camp is that the evidence that the Olmecs were the Jaredites is overwhelming.”
    Response: This is one of the most outlandish claims of proof given, which by the way is shared by almost every Mesoamericanist, that the Olmecs were Jaredites, as though that is proof that Lehi landed in  Mesoamerica. So what is overwhelming? The Jaredites never moved (lived) south of the narrow neck of land according to Ether’s record which Moroni translated. Yet, this following map shows the Olmecs lived south of the Mesoamericanist’s narrow neck of land.

A general map showing archaeologists’ overall consensus as to the areas that had Olmec influence in the Mesoamerican area. Of the 26 listed, 11 are unquestionably in the Mesoamericanist’s Land Southward, or Nephite and Lamanite lands, south (actually east) of their narrow neck of land area—a part of the Land of Promise Ether tells us the Jaredites never occupied
    Ether makes that quite clear: “And it came to pass that Lib also did that which was good in the sight of the Lord. And in the days of Lib the poisonous serpents were destroyed. Wherefore they did go into the land southward, to hunt food for the people of the land, for the land was covered with animals of the forest. And Lib also himself became a great hunter. And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land. And they did preserve the land southward for a wilderness, to get game. And the whole face of the land northward was covered with inhabitants” (Ether 10:19-21, emphasis mine), and no where in the Ether record do we find any movement south of the narrow neck, nor do we find any Nephite comment of any Jaredite interaction or involvement in the Land Southward, nor in the entire record.

Note the orange area of Olmec Heartland, i.e., where they settled and he lands they occupied, called their Heartland. Also note the gray line through this area, depicting the Mesoamericanists' narrow neck of land. Also note the numerous other sites (yellow dots) in their Land Southward to show a very wide area of Olmec occupation and influence—not at all matching the scriptural record
    Yet, the Olmecs began in Mesoamerica’s Land Southward and had several important cities and centers in this Land Southward. There are other problems, too numerous to tell, which have all been covered several times in this blog. But this one of land location should rule them out without further discussion. So let’s take a specific look at the areas of the Olmec settlements and civilization.

Top: A simple map showing the four major Olmec Zones: Tres Zapotes, Laguna de los Cerros, La Venta, and San Lorenzo, the latter two are clearly in the Nephite area of the Land Southward—an area into which the Jaredites never ventured except to hunt. Some may argue San Lorenzo, which is along that narrow neck area; Bottom: Larger map, showing La Venta—whose Olmec period was 900 B.C.—is 220 miles south (actually east) of their narrow neck of land
    The renowned archaeologist Matthew Stirling (below left)—who was the Chief of the Smithsonian's Bureau of American Ethnology, and led the eight Smithsonian Institution-National Geographic Archaeological Expeditions from 1939 to 1946—along with the National Geographic Society and the Smithsonian Institution, stated unequivocally that La Venta was Olmec.

And, in fact, to distinguish the earliest and original parent group of all Mesoamerican cultures, archaeologist and investigator of numerous cultural areas of Mesoamerica, Wigberto Jiménez Moreno (near left), in 1942 (after completing his work Tula and the Toltecs), proposed that this early and original Olmec culture should be called the La Venta people (La Venta Olmec). As an ethnologist, anthropologist, archaeologist, historian, philologist, Director of the National History Museum of Ethnography, Chairman of History, Director of the council of Indigenous Languages and Culture, Moreno was certainly in a position to suggest this (placing the Olmec originating in what would be the Land Southward). About him, it was said, “In 52 years he was master of many generations of anthropologists and historians in many institutions, it was the most thorough and comprehensive expert on ancient Mexico we've had.” And he verifies that the Olmec were in the Mesoamericanists' Land Southward, contrary to the scriptural record.
   In addition, it is also now understood that while some believe the Olmecs (called the “mother culture of Mesoamerica”) originated in the Vera Cruz area and moved southward across the Isthmus of Tehuantepec to have had any appreciable influence on the cultural evolution of the Soconusco region. However, such a postulated movement, especially at the time of the Cherla period, is totally unsupported by any archaeological evidence, which shows that the origination was in the south (east) and moved northward (west) across the Mesoamericanists' narrow neck into their Land Northward.
* There is no mention anywhere in the entire scriptural record of any other people than those mentioned in the record. Despite Mesoamericanists' continually trying to claim there were other people, there is no record, suggestions, or even hint at any other people
(See the next post, “A Look at a Mesoamericanist Rebuttal – Part X” for more on John R’s rebuttal of our six-part post on Narrow Neck of Land and the Fallacy of Mesoamerica’s Isthmus of Tehuantepec.)