Tuesday, July 27, 2021

Questions for Mormons

 Another Critic chimes in on his personal viewpoints that are not based on the scriptural record!

• “Has no one told you the book of Mormon did not take place in south america?!?!”

Has no one told you it did not take place in what is now the United States? Mormon gave one clue: Samuel the Lamanite and the prophesy the Lord put in his mouth to say that at the time of the crucifixion mountains would tumble into valleys and valleys would become mountains, “whose height is great” (Helaman 14:23)—there are no mountains, let alone ones “whose height is great” in the Heartland or Great Lakes models. Also, the models shown on maps do not match Mormon’s descriptions (Alma 22:27-34), have the climate of the Mediterranean for abundant Jerusalem seeds to grow for two super grains (Mosiah 9:9); and there are no areas in these models that were once an island (2 Nephi 10:20); nor had ore of every kind (1 Nephi 18:25), etc., etc., etc.

• “It took place be in north America. Read the intro to the book of Mormon”

The intro, in part, states; “It is a record of God’s dealings with ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains the fulness of the everlasting gospel.” Note that the term “Americas” is plural and means North America, Central America, and South America.

The map of the German cartographer and humanist scholar, Martin Waldseemüller, sometimes known as Hylacomylus (Latinized form of the name),  whose work was influential among contemporary cartographers, created this map in 1507, depicting the New World in a new way “surrounded on all sides by the ocean,” and named the continent for the Florentine merchant who had sailed down its eastern coast

 

South America being the first place to be named “America” in Martin Waldseemüller’s 1507 world map—the first known map to name the new world (South America—Vespucci’s discovery) “America" in recognition of Amerigo Vespucci’s voyages of 1497, 1501–1502 to the New World—in fact, on May 10, 1497, Vespucci embarked on his first voyage. On his second and most successful voyage, Vespucci discovered present-day Rio de Janeiro and Rio de la Plata. Believing he had discovered a new continent, he called South America the New World. In 1507, America was named after him—starting first with South America, then in later maps all of the Western Hemisphere.

On his second voyage, Vespucci followed the coast of South America down to within 400 miles of Tierra del Fuego, realizing that a new continent (South America) had been uncovered as a result of the voyages of Columbus and other explorers in the late fifteenth century—Columbus did not discover North America, never saw it nor knew of its existence—his sighting was of islands in the Caribbean and also South America—he set  foot on the American mainland for the first time, at the Paria Peninsula in present-day Venezuela, South America.

Amerigo Vespucci was an Italian merchant, explorer, and navigator from the Republic of Florence, from whose name the term "America" is derived

 

Waldseemüller’s map supported Vespucci’s revolutionary concept by portraying the New World as a separate continent, which until then was unknown to the Europeans. It was the first map, printed or manuscript, to depict clearly a separate Western Hemisphere, with the Pacific as a separate ocean. The map represented a huge leap forward in knowledge, recognizing the newly found American landmass and forever changing the European understanding of a world then divided into only three parts—Europe, Asia, and Africa.

• “3 nephi, Ether, ("This land" “elephants, (mastadons).”

3 Nephi is an account of the destruction that occurred during the crucifixion, and is not a place identified other than in the history of such destruction as recorded in South America and not North or Central America; In addition, There are cave drawings in South America that pre-date anything in North America of elephants or mastodons. There are also two animals of great worth (ether 9:19) unknown to Joseph Smith in North America that existed and still do in South America.

According to joseph Smith: “He [Moroni] said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang (Joseph Smith—History: Chapter 1:34, emphasis added). In Joseph Smith’s time, and all the way forward until around World War II, the American Continent included North, Central and South America as a single continent. While today we think of America as North America, and Americans as citizens of the U.S., that is not true of Central and South America countries who also call themselves “Americans.”

“adam-ondi-ahman,”

Adam-ondi-ahman is not a place mentioned, described or suggested in the Book of Mormon. It is the place where Adam, who “presides over the spirits of all men” as the “father of the human family” would “call his children, together” to “prepare them for the coming of the son of man” and “[deliver] up his stewardship to Christ”

 

This has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon—it is about the time of Adam, and after the Second Coming. Neither the term—Adam-ondi-ahman—nor the concept of the place, its purpose, and the wind-up-scene in which Adam will be gathered there with all his posterity, has anything to do with the Book of Mormon.

“new jerusalem, garden of eden, choice land, land of promise, and of liberty, etc) 2nephi, all over the doctrine and covenants, Zions camp march.”

Zion’s Camp has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon: “Plains of the Nephites” is not found in the scriptural record, and most of the lands shown on the Heartland and Great Lakes models do not match Mormon’s descriptions in the Book of Mormon.

“Go watch wayne may's videos.”

As for Wayne May, you might want to read a very factual article (Materials, concepts, maps, Wayne May Distorts Facts about Hill Cumorah, by Duane Dahlem, January 2010; which can be found at: http://www.bmaf.org/articles/distorts_facts_hill_cumorah__dahlem) to show that not everyone finds May’s work factual,but downright misinformation.

“South america has little to nothing to do with the book of mormon.”

It has a lot more to do with the Book of Mormon than does North or Central America. As an example, South America matches 66 specific scriptural references, which we have discussed in detail in our Blog nephicode.com over the past 11 years

It might be worthwhile to look into matters a little more closely than you have before writing a critic on one of our blogs. All of this information is readily available in the scriptural record and searches on the internet, such as reasons why someone might disagree with Wayne May, or your claims.

6 comments:

  1. These fervent proclamations about the heartland model honestly surprise me. Of any major model, it is probably the one that is the least defensible by actual Book of Mormon scripture. There is almost not a single actual descriptive passage in scripture that matches north America. Yet the model is passionately defended with almost the entire basis for its defense leaning heavily on opinions of church members (both living and dead), interpretations of church history (none of which is scriptural canon), and enthusiastic patriotism to the modern USA (discounting the overall history of the Americas).

    Sometimes people proudly point to the history of the United States of America as the only possible fulfillment of Book of Mormon prophecy. Yes, it is where the church was restored and is a blessed country. But any Book of Mormon prophecy regarding the gentiles coming to the promised land and devastating the Lamanites before restoring them to a knowledge of their true roots...all of that is magnified many times over when you look south of the border of the modern USA. Columbus didn't even land within the borders of the continental United States. And while the murder and dislocation of largely nomadic native tribes in the north was horrible, it was dwarfed by the conquest of central and south America. Kingdoms and Empires were toppled, millions were exterminated, huge cities were literally taken apart to destroy thousands of years of native history, ancient roads and highways were used to hunt down remaining holdouts, and huge treasure troves of gold and precious metals were ransacked and taken back to Europe as spoils.

    Patriotism shouldn't override the importance of other lands in scriptural history. Nor should it override the absolute requirement for the descriptions as provided in canonized scripture to match a geographical theory.

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  2. Sorry if that last comment sounds harsh. I get a little passionate when people shoot down South America without knowing a thing about it, then parade a highly publicized theory as the only possibility when it pales in scriptural comparison. The whole "Zelph trumps Mormon" approach blows my mind. But I understand, great, faithful people embrace several theories (not all of which can be true). I don't want to personally attack anybody. Mostly I'm venting my own feelings.

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  3. Todd: "These fervent proclamations about the heartland model honestly surprise me." It shouldn't--that is where the MONEY is, a whole lot behind Meldrum and his sales of books,tours, and "artifacts." In this day and age, truth rarely tops money, almost never tops lies, and certainly loses out to honest and sincere people trying to tell the truth. But keep at it--one of these days the tide will turn. I won't be around to see it, but maybe you will (smile)

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  4. Thanks again, Del. I spend a lot of time with Google Earth these days (more than my wife appreciates, I'm sure), but I look forward to visiting the Andes as much as I'm able in the coming years. My wife and I are booked to spend a week in the Land of Many Waters in October, then two weeks in the Land of Nephi next spring. That's assuming the resurgence of the
    delta variant doesn't shut everything down again.

    I have a "work in progress" KMZ file with hundreds of pinned ruins, a tracing of the actual Qapaq Ñan highways, etc. I hope to visit a lot of those places in the future. You helped light that fire for me, so thank you!

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  5. Our best wishes to you and your wife to have a great time. Please keep in mind, many ruins are reached, at least in part, on foot and the elevations are quite difficult for someone from the "Low Countries."

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  6. Hello Todd,

    I would be very interested in your research and findings. I Recently sold my business and would love nothing more than to visit all these locations in Ecuador and Peru.

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