According to the sciences involved, the area of the Great Lakes had a climate change around 4,000 B.C. which caused the region’s weather to become much like it is today. From that point on people moved into the region and were basically nomadic wanderers, frequently moving according to weather and in need for game and harvesting.
The first mound building began in the Great Lakes region. These were earthen mounds that were built on top of a burial site. In southern Ohio, south of the Great Lakes region, the Hopewell culture built some impressive mounds. These
mounds were built in a variety of geometric shapes including squares, circles and crescents. The earthen walls, at the edge of the mounds, would be up to 12 feet high, while the mounds themselves would be as large as 10 meters. Today one of the largest concentrations of these mounds, in Ohio, has been turned into a national historic park.
Dr. Timmins, an expert in this area, believes that mound builders, in places like Hopewell, inspired people in the Great Lakes region to create their own mounds. For example the Norton Mound Group, in Michigan, was built somewhere between 1 and 200 AD. The largest of these mounds is 4.8 meters high, about half the size of the largest of the Hopewell mounds. However, these were trifling. “By Ohio Valley standards these are unremarkable if not picayune,” says Dr. Mason, an author and researcher in this area. “Nevertheless, they are the result of a lot of work.”
However, burial mounds are not unique to the Great Lakes or Ohio and Mississippi valleys. They were known all over the world. Often called tumulus, which is a mound of earth and stones raised over a grave or graves. Tumuli are also known as barrows, burial mounds, Hügelgrab or kurgans, and can be found throughout much of the world. A tumulus composed largely or entirely of stones is usually referred to as a cairn. Of the 24 listed sites of burial mounds in the world, none are found in the Middle East, the area of the Israelites or Jaredites, or even in Egypt—those background areas of the Nephite ancestors.
It is interesting that these Great Lake theorists like to take one passage or concept from the Book of Mormon and build an entire location theory around it at the expense of ignoring so many other scripture references regarding the Land of Promise. Because the hill Cumorah of Joseph Smith’s day was in upper New York State, these theorists claim the Book of Mormon land of promise must be in that same area. However, absolutely nothing of the entire Great Lakes area matches the scripture of the Book of Mormon geography without a great deal of changing, extravagant interpretation, or outright ignoring what else is written.
It is belittling to Nephi and the Lord to think that the best instruction the Lord could give and that Nephi could build was an earthen mound on top of a burial site.
I thought Nephi built a temple in the Land of Promise much like Solomon's temple. Funny there is no sign of such building ability in the Great Lakes area.
ReplyDeleteWanda: 2 Nephi 5:16, Nephi built a temple "after the manner of the temple of Solomon" Hey, I'm learning here to think in terms of scripture and not just memory. Thank you, NephiCode :)
ReplyDeleteNo offense, but you don't know a thing, and your misleading your family and friends. Repent!
ReplyDeleteHoney: This would be funny if not so sad. This is what we have been talking about on this blog for months. People who have opinions but do not back them up with both scripture and facts. Opinions mislead. Scripture, backed up with facts, enlighten. Why don't you read "Lehi Never Saw Mesoamerica" then venture your opposition. That book has hundreds of footnoted references and quotes every scripture in the Book of Mormon regarding the geography of the Land of Promise. You might learn something.
ReplyDeleteBrandon -- I think honey means that because we are LDS, that we don't know a thing and are misleading our family and friends.
ReplyDeleteEither way, I notice the person wanted to criticize but didn't want to leave a name, email, website, etc. I think you call that a back-stabbing attack.
ReplyDeleteLOL...as my old man used to say, if you're going to run off at the mouth, you need to be willing to fight for your opinions.
ReplyDeleteNo offense, but you don't know a thing, and your misleading your family and friends. Repent!
ReplyDeleteThat's a way to win friends and influence people. Sometimes I wonder why people who REALLY know nothing always think they know more than others. Isn't that called pride and aren't we told in scripture that we should repent of such arrogance?
Stick to what you think "is" not to what you think others aren't.
ReplyDeletehoney -- your cute little "pithy" comments have no meaning. If you want to do more than state silly comments meant to be anti whatever, make your point and use REFERENCES other than your own opinions, whatever they may be. I have no idea what you aren't, nor does anyone else whose responded to your comments here so far. At the moment, you come across as someone who is both immature and wants to cause problems and not be part of any solution.
ReplyDelete"No offense, but you don't know a thing, and your misleading your family and friends"
ReplyDeleteFirst, little honey, I have a Ph.D in Chemistry and another in Biology. I think I know "something" and if in fact, someone doesn't know a thing, how can they mislead others? And what is this "repent" about? One might conclude that it is you who know nothing, and cannot even articulate it -- maybe you should go back to school and learn English and interpersonal Communication. You think?????
Now let's play nice, people. This is a site about the geography of the Book of Mormon and everyone can have their own opinions. On the other hand, in the blogging world there is a term called "troll", a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. While I do not want to curtail anyone's discussion or point of view, we want to remain civil, and if someone wants to post that is unwilling to state a serious point of view with reference back-up, then it might be wise to let them troll somewhere else. I will continue this for today, and post anew tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteWow! I just wandered back in here to see what might have transpired since my visit yesterday and find an interesting barrage of comments. I like the troll, a slang internet word truncated from "trolling for suckers." Looks like honey accomplished her goal--really got us going. I think Del is right. Let's ignore such silliness.
ReplyDelete"I have a Ph.D in Chemistry and another in Biology."
ReplyDeleteWhat does a degree in chemistry/biology have to do with geography than you can tell the difference between a land mammal and a water turtle?
"No offense, but you don't know a thing
ReplyDeleteYour comment, not mine. I was just suggesting I must know something. On the other hand, maybe you can't read very well, or have much of a memory. But I do agree with you being a troll.
Answer the question - what does chemistry/ biology have to do with geography? NOTHING!
ReplyDeleteAnd your credentials are?
ReplyDeleteSo you're a dodger fan?
ReplyDeletewhats wrong with being a dodger fan ? if you ever watch a road game for LA, you will see a great many wearing Dodger blue ---- as if they might actually be America's team .
DeleteAre you kidding? I was born and raised in the Bronx. I am a life-long Yankee fan. When younger, lived and died with the pin-stripes. I got to throw out the first pitch in one of the 1981 World Series games. The Yankees lost that series, however, and I have always been a Dodger hater.
ReplyDeleteI'm a Dodger fan. Have been since 1958.
ReplyDeleteWell I'm a Los Angeles Angels fan and have been for years. World Series champions. Rivera, Aybar, Napoli, Matsui, Weaver. Go Angels. They're gonna kill the Dodgers in a couple of weeks, and will beat the Yankess during the regular season. Mark my words.
ReplyDeleteNice, but you failed to show the relation between Chemistry/Biology and geography.
ReplyDeleteYou failed to explain why you want to know. However it might be suggested that all sciences are inter-related. Had you sufficient learning, you might have uncovered that little tid-bit.
ReplyDeleteI perceive you're too smart to be taught, i.e. you're always right, everyone else is always wrong. Repent!
ReplyDeleteYou could certainly use some interpersonal skills
ReplyDeleteTo brag is to alienate people.
ReplyDeletehoney...YOU have certainly alienated all the people on this blog
ReplyDeleteWhat can I say, it's a big pond.
ReplyDeleteWhat can I say
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you say something of value? State your own opinion on the matters we're discussing and you are criticizing, as you've been asked previously, and support it with facts, figures, scriptures, or whatever. All you have done so far is try to poke holes in others' stated views. And I'm not talking about meaningless phrases, or criticisms. It's a big pond so stake out your little corner and state your views and let's see how they fly in light of others who are willing to say something meant to enlighten, aid, or help.
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ReplyDeleteShow one author who recanted their model and I'll follow your advice.
ReplyDeleteYou were asked to state your view with supportive evidence why you think that way. You counter with another meaningless comment. So far that I know of, there are at least 5 varying models of the location of the Land of Promise in various parts of the Western Hemisphere. They all cannot right, so it does not matter whether someone recant their model or not--only one place can be right, so the other four, who do not recant, are still wrong, no matter what their belief. Lehi only landed in one spot, not five, or four, or three, or even two. Only one author's model can be correct. So state your opinion of YOUR belief, or shut up. You have written 10 posts and none of them provide any value so far. &@%#@ or get off the pot.
ReplyDeleteYou can't show anyone who changed their view.
ReplyDeleteI'll assume your pride is as strong.
Had you any insight, you would have avoided the same modus operandi.
Instead, it's just another theory being used to stroke an ego.
You didn't ask for anyone who changed their view. You asked about someone who wrote a book. As for anyone, just look around the Internet and you will see some people who have changed their view from one model to another. I also have several letters and emails from people who have read my book(s) that have become convinced of the Andes being the Land of Promise, partially because every scripture regarding the Land of Promise is included and fits into the Andes area like a glove. It is truly amazing and many people have written to me, called me, or stated publicly of their agreement.
ReplyDeleteIt is not a matter of pride, it is a matter of scriptural accuracy and over 20 years of study.
Insight is an interesting thing. Mine comes from over 20 years of studying the scriptures and looking for some place that matched them, not deciding on some place that looked or sounded good and then try to bend scripture to fit it.
Stroking one's ego has nothing to do with the creation of these four books. It is the result of a great deal of research, study, and prayer. When people call the kettle black, it is usually because they are stating their own prideful attitudes.
Now. You have spent all this time criticizing people you don't know, or know anything about. If you were to read "Lehi Never Saw Mesoamerica" and had any intelligent comment to make about it, pro or con, we could pursue it. But all you do is criticize, disagree, and try to elicit emotional responses. So let me make this clear. This blog is for intelligent people who want to discuss, pro or con, what is written here in an intelligent manner. If you would like to contribute with something more than what you have done, fine. I would be glad to read it. But so far you have written absolutely nothing worth reading.
If you post again with this same type of dribble, it will be removed. If you want to discuss a theory you disagree with, then as the other bloggers here have invited you to do, state your views and back them up with scripture and facts, research and study. The work you are criticizing you obviously know nothing about. So your criticizing comments are meaningless.
Let me just throw in my two-cents worth, then this issue is closed for me.
ReplyDeleteI have read Del's four books and they are an amazing collection of explanations of Lehi's Land of Promise as there is in print--especialy the scientific one that backs up all claims with an understanding of accurate science.
I have also read just about every book on the subject, from Nibley, to Hunter and Ferguson, to Sorenson, to May, to Hauck, to Aston, to Ainsworth, to Hilton, to Allen, etc., etc., etc., and none are as complete and use scripture as accurately and provide as much academic (archaeological and anthropological) evidence or science (geology or biology) evidence as Del's books do.
I originally came into this blog to mentally challenge its contents, but found over time a most amazing collection of thoughts and ideas on the subject as I have ever run across. Now I come into this blog almost every day to see what new things I can learn. And having spent a lifetime learning, I am amazed at how much Del knows about this subject that can be backed up by every non-emotional involvement to the subject and the history of the Nephites and the area.
I used to visit many other sites on this subject, including Neal A. Maxwell Institute, but I find all the others, except the latter, to be a waste of time for they are emotionally charged, and do not relate to intelligent understanding and academic or scriptural proof. As for the latter, many items are good, but some are misleading--that is, are not actually consistent with the scriptural evidences.
So despite people like this "honey" who, I agree, has nothing whatsoever to contribute, I find this blog the most enlightening on the subject I have yet discovered.
Curly...I couldn't have said it better. Ditto.
ReplyDeleteI commented earlier in these posts but found the discussion thread to be fruitless. How can anyone decide anything about anyone or any idea without first looking into it, reading about it, and seeing whether or not it is factual or fallacy. Obviously, this "honey" has done none of that and is why she/he does not respond to the several invitations to state an opinion and back it up with facts, scripture, references, etc. But I will say one thing in "honey's" defense. I have met several of the people mentioned by Curly who have written on this subject in my time in Provo--and I agree that they are a prideful group. I have also talked to Del and I have not found him to be prideful about his Andean model in the least---I think the reason is, when the spirit confirms your findings, there is no room for pride, merely gratitude that you have understood what the scriptures really say.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletehoney -- perhaps you can "clarify" your superior view of:
ReplyDeletea. A model
b. A theory
c. Why this blog needs to repent
d. How Lehi arrived at his landing sight
e. Your superior view of your own position
f. Why this site doesn't know a thing
g. Why the people here are misleading their families
h. Why you think you are not being offensive
honey. Evidently this will come as a shock to you, but we can all read what Del wrote. And just as obvious, you don't even know the name of the person you are criticizing. The truth is, though, that his comments regarding you are right on.
ReplyDeleteMORMON's CODEX by John Sorenson for me is compelling; I confess to not yet having read Del's 4 books....yet very recently LIDAR infra-red imaging over northern guatemala discovered what lay beneath the thick jungle canopy --- over 60,000 cement homes, spread over a wide area, and these are in settlements connected by well built highways ! a very exciting find for archeologists, and very likely a find that gives even more weight to MORMON CODEX's MesoAmerican model (setting aside the fact that JS most definitely settled on mesoamerica as the location of the Jaredite and Nephite civilizations)
ReplyDelete