Thursday, December 1, 2011

What the Story of Hagoth Tells Us – Part IV – Never Heard From Again

Continuing from the last post, questions 1 through 3 were answered. Question 4 begins below:

4. Did Hagoth's immigrants land in the same vicinity that those who traveled by land, mentioned in Helaman 3:3-4, reach?

The answer to this, though in opposition to all Mesoamerican theorists, seems to be a clear and unarguable “no.” These people were never heard from again (Alma 63:8). They had no future intercourse with those in the Land of Promise, no shipping exchanges, bartering or trade. They were isolated from the Nephites and Lamanites we read about in the scriptural record, and very likely, none in the Land of Promise knew of their existence or location since Mormon never writes about them, or refers to them, again. They went to “a land which was northward” beyond the confines of the Land Northward, where no interaction took place. If any went there to find them, none returned to tell about it. Thus, it can be seen from the record that they were never heard from again. This is also verified by when the Nephites went north in such large numbers and spread all across the land (Helaman 3:8), there is no mention of their meeting with, seeing, or encountering those that went north by ship, because they were simply not in the Land Northward. Yet, at least one of the ships that went northward returned after depositing its cargo of men, women and children (Alma 63:7)--so we cannot say they were all lost in the sea (Alma 63:8).

5. When the immigrants mentioned in Helaman 3:3-4 settled the Old Jaredite domain of many waters and rivers just eight years after Hagoth's ships sailed, then spread out over the entire land from the north sea to the south, from the east sea to the west, why did they not encounter Hagoth's immigrants?

Obviously, since these Nephites spread all across the land, they would have encountered those from Hagoth’s ships had they been in the Land Northward. Since no encounter took place, the emigrants from Hagoth’s ships could not have been in the same land.

6. When Mormon led his people in a retreat from Zarahemla to the area of many waters and rivers in the land northward around 385 A.D., why did they not seek aid from the Nephite descendants of Hagoth's immigrants (who had settled somewhere to the north) in the great and final battle with the Lamanites?

We are told in Mormon’s description of the destruction of the Nephites in the last battle where they were wiped out by the Lamanites, that 23 Nephite Generals lost 10,000 men each, for a total of 230,000 Nephite dead. These were men. When including their wives and children, we run into a number of at least 1,000,000 Nephite dead. While Mormon hoped that at this last battleground in the Land of Cumorah (Mormon 6:2), that the Nephites might gain some advantage over the Lamanites (Mormon 6:4), though he seemed to know in his heart it would be their last stand (Mormon 6:6). We also know that this place or battlefield was chosen by Mormon (Mormon 6:2), and that he marched his million or so people there for this battle (Mormon 6:4).

Now, the question arises that if those 20,000 to 25,000 Nephites who went “to a land which was northward” in Hagoth’s ships (Alma 63:4), were in the Land Northward, as all Mesoamerican theorists claim, then why did Mormon not include their numbers which, after some 400 years, would have totaled in the millions? The same question could be raised, that if the Land Northward was in southern Mexico, as all Mesoamerican theorists claim, why did Mormon not continue to march his people northward, into northern Mexico and southern United States, to keep from having to fight a no-win battle with the Lamanites who outnumbered them by huge numbers (Mormon 6:8). Such numbers had frightened Mormon’s army earlier (Mormon 2:3). So why did they not just run and continue to run further and further north?

Despite Sorenson’s ridiculous comment about all the good lands northward in Mexico and the United States would have been already settled (by whom? one might ask) and there was no “good land” for the Nephites, it seems that any man would prefer to run and find a land of any worth for his wife and children, rather than stand and be killed along with his wife and children.

The answer to both questions is basically the same. The descendants of Hagoth’s emigrants were not in the Land Northward to be brought into the fight, and the Nephites were not in Mesoamerica, but on an island, where they could not continue to run northward to escape—a fact Mormon well knew and understood.

(See the next post, “What the Story of Hagoth Tells Us – Part V,” for more information in answering these questions about Hagoth and his ships and emigrants)

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