In another case of
reader comments too extensive to deal with in the Comments section of our blog,
these two articles are written in answer.
Reader Comment: “Thanks
for taking the time to try to answer my questions...I don't want to start an
argument, but there are a couple of things that stand out to me from your
responses:
1) “The "w" in the "waters of
Sidon" is not capitalized so it is not necessarily a separate place. The
point being the waters of Sidon were still in the borders of Zarahemla, in the
same place they were before. Such a dramatic change in elevation would have
displaced them” Tyrus.
Response: There were
no capital letters in the writings of Mormon. Such things were added by the
scribe or later works—and then only to what appeared to be names. There would
be no way of knowing if Waters meant a standing body of water, or simply a
river, though we can draw a conclusion (sort of) from the fact that in English,
waters generally has a connotation of a body of water. Webster’s 1828
definition is: ”Waters: The ocean; a sea; a lake; a river; any great collection of
water; as in the phrases, to go by water
to travel by water.”
Since there is no indication anywhere in the scriptural record that the
Nephties (or anyone else) traveled on the River Sidon (all comments were
crossing over it) and no other river is mentioned, we might be able to rule out
“river” from Webster’s explanation.
We can also look at the fact that while “water” a
noncount or uncountable noun (meaning a noun that does not change to a plural
form), in the singular form, and is in the sense of an area or stretch of water
(such as a river, lake or sea), the word “waters” in the plural form is a “body
of water of a particular place, such as “the waters of the Great Lakes,” or the
“waters of Hudson Bay” (Robert Charles Lee, 35+ years in editorial and
publishing of American English).
Elsewhere, Mormon uses the “waters of Mormon” (Mosiah
18:8)—“Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they
called),” also the "w" not
capitalized—to refer to an area of standing water, i.e., lagoon, pond, small
lake, etc., where Alma hid in the forest of Mormon nearby and baptized in these
waters. If this was fed by a river, there is no mention of it. In this sense,
“waters” is used to mean a specific body of water—called “Mormon,” which were
“gathered together at the place of Mormon” (Mosiah 18:7). And in its English
format, is used in the plural to denote the presence of a large body of water,
rather than running water. We use such a term to denote possession like in
“American” or “U.S. Waters,” or “Peruvian Waters” or “International waters.”
In idiomatic sense, we use “stormy waters,” or
“dangerous waters,” as in the metaphors meaning “troubled” or “difficult”
times. But generally speaking, “water” in the singular is most often used, and
should be used almost all of the time because it is an uncountable noun.
1a. "Thus, your comment “The "w" in the "waters
of Sidon" is not capitalized so it is not necessarily a separate place”
Response: This is not correct, for it most definitely
is a separate place, and the use of “waters” so designates it as such.
1b. "The point being the waters of Sidon were
still in the borders of Zarahemla…"
Response: This is
true; however, the borders of Zarahemla would have been a rather large area,
since the border would have run from north to south along side at least the
Land of Gideon, and Mormon could be referring to anywhere along that border,not
necessarily along the entire border where the river earlier ran.
1c. “…in the same place they were before."
Response: Again, we
do not know to what degree—see 1b above.
1d. "Such a dramatic
change in elevation would have displaced them"
Response: We do
not know what change in elevation might have taken place here—the level of land
on which the river flowed past the borders might not have been affected, just
the elevation to the south (the old head or headwater of the river itself). In
other words, there could have been some type of blockage form between these two
spots that diverted the river elsewhere (possibly to the east into the Amazon
Basin), leaving a lake or waterway of standing waters called “Sidon” at this
time after the crucifixion.
The point is, we don’t know any of this—only that
the term “waters” was used by Mormon and that has a connotation of its own.
2) "The scriptures don't say that mountains
displaced any seas or that the mountains that rose up were even in the East.
Those are assumptions."
Response: Perhaps a
“likely” assumption, since there was an East Sea all along the east coast of
the Land of Promise, particularly here along the Land Southward—and that area
is no longer a sea. Moreover, that area is now occupied by the highest mountain
chain in the Western Hemisphere, which matches “there shall be many places
which are now called valleys which shall become mountains, whose height is
great” (Helaman 14:23) and coastal plains are often referred to as coastal
valleys—the language seems to support such a “likely” assumption.
Stone
wharfs at Puma Punku, now at 12,800 feet and sixteen miles from any water, were
once at sea level and handled hundreds of ships. Top: These broken stones from
the four-level building overlooking the wharves and docks were once a single
stone, weighing over four hundred ton, now obviously broken by some extremely
powerful uplift
Around Lake Titicaca, along what
would have been the eastern seacoast of the Land Southward are ruins at Puma
Punku showing huge wharfs. Even today, local people consider the area sacred.
The depth of the lake and the poor visibility complicate studies of the bottom,
and ignorance breeds legend. Recently, a team of divers and researchers from
society Akakor Geographical Exploring made 200 dives to the ruins of the sunken
city. At the bottom were found ruins of temples, fragments of roads, walls and
terraces, which once was grown agricultural plants. It has long been among the
locals could be heard talking about the sunken city, but only by the
development of technology, it became possible to dive. Remains of the temple
complex was found at a depth of 20 meters, where divers proceeded along found
at the bottom of the road that led to their discovery.
At the bottom of the lake,
researchers have found many artifacts, which included fragments of gold,
ceramic statues, stone statues, boats, bones of humans and animals and
containers with incense.
The
ruins of an ancient temple have
been found by international archaeologists under Lake Titicaca, the world's
highest lake. A terrace for crops, a long road and an 2,600 feet long wall was
also found under the waters of the lake, sited in the Andes mountains between
Bolivia and Peru
It might well be that
in the original writing of the Disciple Nephi and others at the time, which
only 1% remained after Mormon’s abridgement, much more was written about what
took place and how. That we do not have such information is likely the result
of Mormon not writing that since it might have taken away the real importance
of 3 Nephi from the advent of the Savior. Still, I would have liked to have
known exactly how that happened and what took place.
2a. “We know mountains came up in the place of
valleys but it doesn't say in the place of water.”
Response: Personally,
I don’t think the “mountains” came up in the place of “water” or “sea.” In
mountain building, folds of land rise upward—whatever the coastal area of the
Land of Promise was (which, by the way is never said, nor is any other coastal
area described in appearance anywhere in the scriptural record—so we cannot go
by what it does not say), that coastal area rose up into the mountains we know
today as the Andes—and the Cordillera Oriental (the east branch or cordillera, which would
have been along the coastal plain [valley]).
We also have to keep
in mind that the only actual comment we have regarding this is not the Disciple
Nephi’s writing (or Mormon’s abridgement of his writing), but a prophecy given
by Samuel the Lamanite, who came up out of the Land of Nephi, and may never
have even seen the east coast or the Sea East of the Land of Zarahemla, or even
the Land of Nephi. Besides, he was not giving a geography lesson, but said, “Behold, I, Samuel, a Lamanite, do speak the
words of the Lord which he doth put into my heart; and behold he hath put it
into my heart to say unto this people that…” (Helaman 13:5).
Evidently, based on
what he said, his emphasis (words put into his heart to say) dealt with a
“sign” (Helaman 14:20), and that “sign” was a huge mountain range “whose height
is great” (Helaman 14:23) that would be seen by basically everyone throughout
the Land of Promise “when they shall see all these signs and wonders which shall
be showed unto them” (Helaman 15:3). After all, the Sea East could not have
been seen by everyone, but everyone could see more than 50 peaks over 20,000-foot high which can
be seen all along the west coast—in fact, they are the longest chain in the
world at 4,500 miles.
(See the next post,
“More on the Destruction in 3 Nephi – Part II,” for more of this reader’s
questions and our answers regarding the destruction in 3 Nephi)
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