More Comments from Readers – Part X

Here are more comments that we have received from readers of this website blog:

Comment #1: “Two things about the Nephites in North America based on the walls built by the

Nephites. First of all, there is no reason why timber palisades cannot "tremble" or have some depth with a platform at the top for standing. The Book of Mormon indicates both stone and timber fortifications. Consider Alma 48:1, Alma 50:2 and 53:1. Secondly, Moroni had been strengthening the armies of the Nephites, and erecting small forts, or places of resort; throwing up banks of earth round about to enclose his armies.

Thirdly, Moroni built walls of stone to encircle them about, round about their cities and the borders of their lands; yea, all round about the land. Second, he also built walls of timber. As he stated: “upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities. And he caused that upon those works of timbers there should be a frame of pickets built upon the timbers round about; and they were strong and high.” Jay M.

Walls of stone built by Moroni around cities and all the land round about

Response: First, let’s dispel the idea of platforms behind the walls for defenders to stand upon. The only reason such platforms were built was during the gunpowder period where riflemen stood on the platforms protected by the walls and shot at the enemy. In the age of swords and slings, having a platform behind the wall would be completely useless and obviously, would not serve any purpose.

Second, let’s take a look at the actual scriptural references:) “The earth shook exceedingly, and the walls of the prison did shake as if they were about to tumble to the earth” (Helaman 5:27), and also, “And the walls of the prison trembled again, as if it were about to tumble to the earth” (Helaman 5:31). Also, “And it came to pass that the earth shook again, and the walls trembled” (Helaman 5:32). Finally, “and the walls did tremble again, and the earth shook as if it were about to divide asunder” (Helaman 5:33). And when a fire broke out in the prison, “it did not take hold upon the walls of the prison” (Helaman 5:44);

Stone, of course, does not burn but wood does. In addition, stone walls tremble and tumble to the earth, but wood just falls.

A breastwork of timbers built upon the piled high dirt which had been thrown up, and the depth of the ditch which had been dug round about

2) We find that Moroni states that these forts were “places of resort; throwing up banks of earth round about to enclose his armies.” Note that he states “banks of earth to enclose his armies,” not to enclose cities. On the other hand, Moroni states that “and also building walls of stone to encircle them about, round about their cities and the borders of their lands” means the Nephites built stone walls around their cities and all around the land.

In addition, the Nephites built a breastwork of timbers upon the inner bank of the ditch; and built a wall of timbers on top of piled high dirt. As Mormon states: “Teancum, by the orders of Moroni, caused that they should commence laboring in digging a ditch round about the land, or the city, Bountiful.

Irrigation channels not heaps of earth for defensive walls as North American theorists claim. If the latter, they would have to be much deeper and the banks much higher to match the scriptural record

They cast up dirt out of the ditch against the breastwork of timbers; and thus they did cause the Lamanites to labor until they had encircled the city of Bountiful round about with a strong wall of timbers and earth, to an exceeding height” (Alma 53:3-4, emphasis added).

It might be of interest to know that the word “breastwork” is defined as “a low temporary defense or parapet. Note the word “low,” not high. Noah Webster defined the word as meaning in 1928 as “breast high” or “built to the breast.”

Now the definition of timber is given by Noah Webster in his 1828 dictionary as “The body or stem of a tree.” Also, “We apply the word to standing trees which are suitable for“ building.

3) Stone tumbles to the ground, massive stone walls would shake and tremble as a result of the movement of the earth before tumbling to the ground. In Noah Webster’s 1828 dictionary we find the meaning of tremble: To cause to move with quick vibrations; to move rapidly one way and the other; to agitate; as, the wind shakes a tree; A trembling or shivering; agitation—all of this sounds like a wood wall, not a wood palisade wall; however, to fall; to come down suddenly and violently; as, to tumble from a scaffold. The stone of Sisyphus is said to have tumbled to the bottom, as soon as it was carried up the hill, all sounds like a stone wall.

Timber walls were typically cut to points at the top to discourage an enemy from climbing over.  However, the scriptural references quoted show that Mormon was referring to a stone wall made of cut stone blocks that would withstand the attacks of extremely large forces fighting with swords and stones. A wood timber fence is rarely high enough to keep an enemy from climbing over it. Such timber walls were evident during the expansion in the 1800s of the Western U.S. Most of those walls were scaled by attacking Indians when they were guarded by rifles and pistols.

Lastly, Mormon tells us that Samuel the Lamanite after being rejected, he was leaving the area when the Lord told him to return. Since he was not welcome in the city, and the people ”would not suffer that he should enter into the city; therefore he went and got upon the wall thereof, and stretched forth his hand and cried with a loud voice, and prophesied unto the people whatsoever things the Lord put into his heart” (Helaman 13:4).

The type of all built anciently with timbers as described in the scriptural record

One look tells anyone that nobody could stand on these timber walls. They just do not match the scriptural record. On the other hand, a wall of stone would be much easier to stand upon for a length of time like Samuel the Lamanite spent on the wall preaching to the Nephites.

When Samuel the Lamanite stood upon the wall, it would have had to have been solid enough to carry his weight and balance, and tall enough to keep the inhabitants from reaching up to him

Comment #2: The Phoenicians, the Iberians, and the Semitic people were the players. The Iberians first who used and hunted the mammoths as the Indians have said who were a white race. The Iberians came in after the Phoenicians civil war to Idaho and where the Semitic People known as the Nephites joined them. Their fist location was Florida, and when the family separated, they moved to Tennessee, and a Egyptian style temple was found. It was during the time in Tennessee when a pacific trade route was formed bring over the Mongol Lap Landers, who didn't bring Reindeer with them, and instead turned the land into the plains and used buffalo instead. They were pushed to the north among the white Lap Landers, and all these people moved here because of wars. The Romans had a big part in all that, and also the Indians say they came over on a ship. The Nephites were chase up into New York and they rebuilt there, but kept getting attacked until they were wiped out by all of the Indians. The Lap landers couldn't take land where they were pushed to from the white populations there, but they did here. The Indians admit they did that, they knew where they lived.

Response:: First of all, the Phoenicians were never involved in a “civil war.” When Hannibal (a Carthaginian, who were Phoenicians), set out to invade Italy from Carthage (what is today Tunis in Tunisia), and crossed over the Mediterranean into Iberia (today’s Spain), either with his elephants, or had Carthaginian elephants already in Spain, he reached the Rhône River in France. After marching about 750 miles in four months from Cartagena (Spanish port), Hannibal’s army was in need of rest and supplies. There he encountered two princes who were warring with each other (a civil war). The prince Brancus of Allobroges, oldest of the two brothers, when vindicated by Hannibal in arbitration of the conflicting claims, provided Hannibal’s army a fresh outfit of arms, clothes and boots, and were led over the Alps by Brances’ adherents.

Secondly, there is no record of any Iberians involved in the Americas. Iberian, by the way, is a term given to the ancient inhabitants along the east and south coasts whom the Greeks and Romans called Iberians (known today as Spain and Portugal). In 800 to 600 BC, when the Celts migrated southward, they entered the Iberian Peninsula, but did not displace those in the east and south. Thus Galicia and a coastal slice on the east and south, remained Iberians while the Celts became the Spanish and Portuguese. Today, no separation is identified. However, at the time of Columbus and afterward, there were no “Iberians” in Spain, but Spanish and Portuguese. Writing alphabets from Phoenicia and later Greek completely displaced all Iberian writing, and by around 300 or 200 BC, the term Iberian was no longer used.

In reality, since Castillian law forbade anyone not Castillian and Catholic to settle in the New World, those who came became Castillian and Catholic. Thus, those from other lands changed their name to a Spanish name—as an example, George von Speyer became Jorge de la Espira, and Portuguese Aleixo Garcia became Alejo García in the Castilian army, and non-Catholic adventurers converted to catholicism in order to be part of the settlement of the New World.

The idea that Iberians or any Europeans ended up in Idaho, involved with Lap Landers, etc., is far too wild an idea to deserve a response. If you want to make such claims, give specific information, its source, and where it can be found.