We received a series of comments from a reader named Brian who
must have been surfing old articles of ours in the blog. Since his various
comments cannot be answered in a simple response, we are taking his comments
one at a time in answer below:
Reader: “This is such
a great topic [Erecting Small Forts, or Places of Resort,” Monday, September
28, 2015] and one that I have been interested in a long time as a military man.
All credit to Capt. Moroni for his military planning and preparedness, but in
the Mentinah Records it explains that Hagoth was the chief engineer for Capt
Moroni during the wars and was the one who planned the forts and structures…”
Response: First of all, the Mentinah Papers claim to be a history of a people
called the Nemenhah, who are said to have occupied the area of present day
Sanpete County in Utah. The Papers claim to be translations of records found in
the mountains around Manti, Utah, in the 1800s, and that Brigham Young
supposedly said he could not interpret them. The holders of the Papers also
claim that since then they have contacted (unnamed) General Authorities who
have encouraged them. They now claim the Papers have been translated by wise men
speaking languages descended from the languages at the time of the Book of
Mormon. The papers have never been made publicly available, but the
translations have been published both on the internet and in book form.
The
story purports to tell of the descendants of Hagoth, and others who traveled
north from the Nephite lands, from the Book of Mormon. The story seems to take
some of the "loose ends" found in the Book of Mormon and tell what is
not present in the Book of Mormon. For example, Moroni is described as joining
the Nemenhah after the great battles that destroyed his people in about 400 A.D.
He joins with the body of believers and becomes a great leader among them. It
tells of Corianton, son of Alma, who left the Nephite lands with his wife,
Isabel, and established a great and righteous city in the northeastern part of
the land. Although the narration contains some original ideas and stories they
are all off shoots of the Book of Mormon narrative. It describes great
conferences held among the people of the north and the people of the Pacific
Islands. The holders of the Papers have organized an American Indian church
based on the teachings of the Mentihah papers. It is interesting that, on the
other hand, the Mentihah has its own website, published its books and sells
them, and asks for donations—hardly sounds like the way the Lord would provide
additional scripture for us.
Secondly, it should
be kept in mind that in addition to the numerous points in which they are not
consistent with the Book of Mormon, there are theological or procedural
problems. If there were to be such scripture revealed at this time, it would
come through the proper channels of priesthood authority. It would come from
the current Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not
from obscure individuals who claim support from unnamed apostles. As an example, we received the Book of Abraham via papyrus scrolls purchased by members who
donated them to the Church and were reviewed by the Prophet and found to be
authentic writings of Abraham.
As a shipwright, Hagoth built him an
exceedingly large ship
Thirdly, the record
of Hagoth in these Papers does not hold true with the descriptions we have in
the scriptural record. Also, looking at the land where Hagoth built ”him an
exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land
Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which
led into the land northward” (Alma 63:5), which by Mormon’s own description
that the narrow neck of land is a day and a half journey across for a Nephite,
thus, the West Sea is somewhere between 30 and 50 miles apart, yet in these Papers, Hagoth is described as launching ships into the East Sea and sailing up the east of the Land
Northward as well.
In addition, it is recorded that those who went via the West
Sea found a land beyond the Land of Desolation that was “barren and
unforgiving”; however, as the scriptural record says: “And now no part of the
land was desolate, save it were for timber; but because of the greatness of the
destruction of the people who had before inhabited the land it was called
desolate” (Helaman 3:6). These are just two of the errors in the writing,
however, we include them because they are common mistakes made by people who
are familiar with the scriptural record, but not overly familiar, i.e., they
have read it but did not read it carefully in order to understand exactly what
is being said. One more thing is that the story unfolds with Hagoth sailing
north himself, discovering the Mississippi River and sailing up it, etc.
However, there is no record of Hagoth ever sailing anywhere, no any suggestion
as to the fhe possibility of this. Hagoth was a shipwright, a builder of ships,
not an explorer or one who would go off and leave his business which played
such an important part in the economy and history of the Nephites (Helaman
3:14).
Reader: “I
have also collected pics off the web of structures built in South America that
could only have been military fortresses. I believe Machu Picchu was one of
them as it overlooks a river valley that leads from the west coastal plain east
through the Andes into the jungle areas of what must have been the land of
Zarahemla.”
Machu
Picchu overlooks a large valley and was built with a commanding view and
defense in mind
Response: First, there are some great photos on the internet;
however, to really get an appreciation of the military genius behind the
placement of buildings, fortresses, resorts, etc., you have to see them in
person. To stand on the front steps so to speak of a fortress and look at its
coverage down the mountains, hills, slopes, etc., gives you a remarkable insight
into what the builders truly had in mind in placing their structures as they
did. Their field of view (field of fire) was extremely well thought out, their
defensive walls brilliantly set, and even escape routes for small forts
ingeniously understood. Second, however, the Land of Zarahemla would not have been to the east of Machu Picchu down in the jungle. The Land of Zarahemla ran from the east, along the borders of Antionum (Alma 31:3) and Gideon (Alma 6:7) to the West Sea (Alma 22:32).
Reader: “It is good to
plan your defense in a choke point or narrow point where fighting is restricted
by space and terrain features so that a smaller number of defenses can
withstand a greater number. It is the same strategy that Leonides used to stop
Xerxes and the Persians at Thermopylae. I also found pics of the wall that
Moroni had built from the sea west to the mountains of the wilderness to stop
the Lamanite advances north along the west coast to points where they could
slip through the mountain passes unnoticed down into the land of Zarahemla.”
Response: We have written several times about the “Great
Wall of Peru,” on these pages. Unknown to most people, with very few structures
left to see today, there were 50 small forts built on the south side of the
wall, each about a mile apart, some being square, others rectangular and others
circular in shape, and each on the top of a mountain to command the high
ground, with each about 200 feet by 300 feet in size. There is no question
that Moroni, and his son, Moronihah, were both geniuses in thinking and
building the defenses of their nation; however, there is no cause to think that Hagoth had anything to do with these defenses, living far to the north of most of them and involved in shipbuilding, not traveling around with Moroni inspecting the defensive positions.
Reader: “You mentioned [“What
Did Mormon Mean Giddianhi and the Band of Robbers? Part I,” Wednesday,
September 30, 2015] that the Nephites were well versed in maritime trade
because Hagoth had built ships to take the Nephite and Ammonite ex-patriots
north to a new land and a new life. If so that is never mentioned anywhere. The
ships as far as we can tell were only used to carry the people away and later
return for supplies, and more people."
Response: It seems important to inject here the writings of
Helaman who Mormon abridges in a few short sentences about the history of the
Nephite people in the last century B.C., in which it is written: “And
now there are many records kept of the proceedings of this people, by many of
this people, which are particular and very large, concerning them. But behold, a
hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, yea, the account of the
Lamanites and of the Nephites, and their wars, and contentions, and
dissensions, and their preaching, and their prophecies, and their shipping and
their building of ships, and their building of temples, and of synagogues and
their sanctuaries, and their righteousness, and their wickedness, and their
murders, and their robbings, and their plundering, and all manner of
abominations and whoredoms, cannot be contained in this work” (Helaman
3:13-14).
Now of all that
Helaman and Mormon could have written and included regarding the enterprises in
which the Nephites were involved, shipping and building of ships was one that was not only singled out, one of only two mention, the other building buildings (temples and synagogues). We are not talking here about taking some passengers into the Land
Northward and coming back for supplies, etc. Instead, we are talking here about a huge
enterprise that involved the entire Nephi economy—“and their shipping” is
indicative of a wide-spread and far flung
enterprise commercial business; and when we keep in mind they were on an
island with a main coastline of 1200 miles of Nephite-controlled land from Zarahemla (Pachacamac) to Ogath or Ablom (Waters of Ripliancum)
one can see that shipping would be a useful and no doubt lucrative business.
This no doubt would have included transportation, hauling freight, including
food to markets, fishing, movement of troops, and, of course, immigration—the
latter being what Mormon chose to specifically include as part of his showing
the incursion of the Nephites into the Land Northward.
(See the next post, “Interesting Thoughts from a Reader and
Our Responses – Part II,” for more information on the comments and responses
regarding the Nephites and their activities)
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Here is another theory about who built Machu Picchu. If you look at maps made by Venice Priddis you find that Machu Picchu was likely built by Amulon and the wicked priests of Noah. It would have been called the City of Amulon. Hence the reason for it being built like a fortress and found high in the Andes. Of course back during the time of the wicked priests of Noah it would have been at a lower elevation. I'm sure it was fixed up and used later by the Incas and may have been greatly changed by them. Ira
ReplyDeleteI am familiar with her map and idea and find it as good a point as any other. The only negative I see on it is that I'm not sure the evil priests of king Noah would have been sufficient in number to have built that very extensive site. They were a lazy and indolent lot (Mosiah 11:6) and Machu Picchu was a very laborious project. It would be interesting if some group decided to trace back the small boulders used in the building of the houses--when you are there you can see where the large, square stones were cut in the "quarry" that were used for the larger public buildings, etc., but there seems to be no source for the smaller, rounded boulder-stones used for the myriad of private housing. It would be interesting to see if that rock/bounders came from a river bed at a lower elevation.
ReplyDeleteMacchu Picchu, Cusco and many Andes sites show two types of stonework: later Inca work, and earlier megalithic work that must have been Nephite. I agree it is hard to believe the Priests of Noah did the megalithic work. Possibly these Priests started the site in a primitive way, and then later the megalithic work was done in the period when the Nephites and Lamanites were no longer at war with each other. Here is an example of what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y72vpIdt1QA
ReplyDeleteI was going to add a scripture to my earlier comment, but was hurried to get to Church. So I'm back and here is the scripture: "Now there was a place in Shemlon where the daughters of the Lamanites did gather themselves together to sing and to dance and to make themselves merry...a small number of them gathered together to sing and to dance...and the priests of king Noah...and having tarried in the wilderness discovered the daughters of the Lamanites...and when there were but few of them gathered together to dance, they came forth out of their secret places and took them and carried them into the wilderness; yea, twenty and four of the daughters of the Lamanites they carried into the wilderness” (Mosiah 20:1-5). So one would think that the most the Priests would have had was 24 men...having seen Machu Picchu, I find it hard to see how that number of heretofore lazy men would have built all those houses, but it could have been.
ReplyDeleteAs for your video...yes, there is certainly a difference between work the Lamanites did and work the Nephites have done, we have shown numerous examples of the more-or-less shoddy work the Lamanites performed in trying to repair the walls later built by the Nephites. As for the example, which is down in Cuzco itself, the base of many of the buildings still show the Nephite work. However, we might want to remember two things: 1) the later work in Cuzco attributed to the Inca was mostly built after the Spanish arrived--while the Spanish forced the Inca to build their buildings, the Spanish knew a lot more about building than the Inca and forced the labor performed. I imagine the Spanish insisted on the same type of work (finish) previously done which they may have attributed to the Inca who had not done it and were evidently incapable of duplicating it as the film shows.
As for the shiny surface, there is a story told by Garcilaso de la Vega regarding that and it is quite interesting. One of these days I'll get around to writing about it because it shows the splendor of the city of Cuzco under the reign of the Nephites, especially the temple that Nephi built.