More Comments from Readers – Part III

Here are more comments that we have received from readers of this website blog:
Comment #1: “I ran across this the other day and thought I’d ask what you think of it…”Why were the prominent chieftain Zelph and the great Prophet Onandagus, who was known from the eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains, not mentioned at all in the Book of Mormon? Surely a prophet of such prominence would have received some notice had he been known to the historians of the Book of Mormon” Sean S.
Response: This looks like the comment posted on Fair Mornmon Blog by Tyler Livingston back in 2010. In his lengthy article, Livingston also makes the statement: “I find it interesting that Joseph Smith never specifically mentioned the Zelph incident to anyone. He may have been referencing the incident when he wrote Emma the following day about wandering the “plains of the Nephites” and picking up skulls as an authenticity of The Book of Mormon, but never mentions an ancient warrior named Zelph and a previously unknown prophet Onandagus. This private letter from Joseph Smith is the closest we have of Joseph Smith recording the event.”
    As to why not in the Book of Mormon, as we’ve stated many times before, when Hagoth built several exceedingly large ships to be used as immigrant transports for those thousands who chose to go “to a land which was northward,” we find Nephites and Lamanites moving into Central and MesoAmerica for the first time around 50 B.C. By them, the ruins we find today in Mexico, the Yucatan and Guatemala were eventually built and from them some of their descendants traveled into North America, where we find today a remnant of the Lamanite people.

In the entire Land of Promise (Ether 13:2), Lehi landed in the far south along the West Sea (Alma 22:28); some Nephites went Northward in Hagoth’s ships (Alma 63:4-5); the bones of Zelph, a white Lamanite, were found in Illinois

Thus, by the time the door of history had closed on the Land of Promise, i.e., those in the Book of Mormon, Nephites had been wiped out and Moroni closing out the record, the events of Onandagus and Zelp had not yet been played out and their history completely unknown to Mormon and Moroni.
Comment #2: “I have been studying the maps I have of Peru for some time now and with all the mountains that have come up around the country to a great height, and if this happened as you say at the time of 3 Nephi 8, then I think you might be right about the rivers changing. When you look into the myriad of mountain peaks, valleys and canyons, it is easy to see how rivers could have been changed, diverted, old ones flowing elsewhere and new ones starting up. There is enough perpetual snow down there to have flooded the area” Craig S.
Response: I think the idea of rivers might be one we will have to wait and see about. You are right in that anything could have happened there with such a change in topography as described, i.e., mountains collapsing and new ones rising to great heights. By the way, it is not us saying this, it was prophesied by Samuel the Lamanite (Helaman 14:23).
Comment #3: “I consider Christ turning the water into wine at the wedding to be a miracle unrelated to anything we understand, just like moving mountains.”
Response: How about Christ simply being the greatest chemist that has ever lived, knowing exactly the fermentation, inoculating the juice with live yeast, which then carries out the fermentation reaction of C6H1206  →  2C2H5OH  +  2CO2 at the same time turning oxygen into carbon dioxide which oxidizes the phenols and the sugar and ethanol are converted to carbon dioxide and water.
    Then he simply removed the unwanted solids, salts and microorganisms, who all obey his voice. When the high biological oxygen demand is produced, he simply commands it to compost or otherwise dispose into other waste elements . Just because God works through commands and all things obey him is not really that different than we working with our hands and physically doing the same thing. It is a simple process as every chemist knows—how to do it is another thing.
    It is no different than removing a hill or mountain. The lord speaks (or someone through the priesthood, like the Brother of Jared) and the elements of the earth making up the hill breakdown and move to another location, forming the same basic hill or mountain, or spread thinly over the ground to form a valley. It’s child’s play—you just need to know how to work through command rather than work it yourself—like commanding the big Earth Mover drivers to spread out the dirt from the mountain. Of course, they have to do it by hand, and the Lord does it by command, but the process is not all that different. Someday we will come to know that this is just child’s play when the elements all obey you.
Comment #4: ”At this point, Oliver breaks from fact, to state his opinion, when he recounts what he believes took place in this vale: ‘At once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.’ So... when Oliver Cowdery writes the word "fact" you believe he means "opinion." You are here declaring Oliver to be a liar. What other "facts" has Oliver lied about (in your opinion)?”
First, did Oliver Cowdery lie? No. Of course not. We have always felt Oliver was a sincere and devoted man to the cause. I also think he was ambitious, over-zealous, and quite excitable about the gospel and the Book of Mormon. I’m sure he believed what he said to be true—how could he not being part of the coming forth of the Book and having a testimony of its divinity?
    He also believed he could translate, though the Lord had to show him he could not without learning a great deal more (D&C 9:1-4). Yet, he saw how it was translated, he saw the Hill Cumorah, he saw and experienced the vision of the cave within. All these things he saw and knew to be facts; however, he never saw the battle, never saw or experienced these two forces coming together, never saw but in his mind’s eye, the final battle of the Nephite nation and its annihilation—but he believed in its truthfulness and waxed poetic regarding how it must have been—how he saw it happening in his mind.

Looking North along the hill Cumorah in western New York. Note the gentle slope to it then is even lower in the foreground than toward the horizon. It would have been a simple matter for Lamanties to move over this hill in any direction. To say the battle took place only on one side would go against all understanding of warfare, let alone a savage killing spree of the Lamanites

Second, that the battle took place is a fact, for it is recorded in the scriptural record. Where the battle took place we do not know because we have never been told, thus Oliver’s comments about the location are merely opinion. As interesting as they may be, and helpful in helping one to visualize the event and the attitude the Nephites would have had, all we know from scripture is that the Nephites “with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them” (Mormon 6:7), but much of what Oliver wrote about this event is his opinion based on Mormon’s simple statement.
    However, Oliver did not know where the battle happened, that is, he did not know with any factual evidence that the unnamed hill in New York was the same hill named Cumorah in the scriptural record. In fact, having stood on that hill and looked out over the valley, it is ludicrous to think that the entire battle and all of the Nephites, numbering 220,000 warriors and their wives and children, which should have amounted to somewhere between 30,000 to 35,000. There is no way 300,000+ Nephites and at least 300,000 to 350,000 Lamanites could have fit in that small valley between the two hills, now called the West Valley, let along have a savage “no quarter” battle take place.
    After all, Mormon tells us that the Nephites pitched their tents “round about the hill Cumorah” (Mormon 6:4, emphasis added). Thus the Nephites in battle would have been all around the hill, which means they were in the West, North, South and East valley, though Oliver describes it all happening in the West Valley. In addition, since we do not know from what actual direction the Lamanites approached, we cannot claim they reached any specific side of the hill to begin with.
    The point is, though his description is interesting, and probably accurate about the feelings, the idea of the battle happening in a single valley cannot possibly be accurate. In fact, the hill is so low, and so easily traveled over, to think that the kill-crazed Lamanites would have limited their activities ot one side of the hill is ludicrous. That Oliver had an opinion is clear. But it was an opinion, and until it is officially stated, it is not a fact.