Opinions Are Not Facts – Part I

We continually either read articles or comments regarding the Land of Promise that are based on opinions, beliefs, and personally interpreted information. In so many of these cases, those opinions are so erroneous it is almost humorous, except that they are about the Book of Mormon, often treated as simply a text and of no special origin—at least that is how their comments read. We received another series of comments from a reader who disagreed with our answers to their earlier claims, and not wanting to beat a dead horse, but concerned about others picking up on such obviously erroneous comments, we are answering these comments here:
Comment: “The reason Moroni had to have made his way North at the end of his life was because he had to have been in the New York area in order to deposit the plates in the ground where Smith later found them.” 

We sing the song, “How Great Thou Art,” for he created the worlds, stars, and the Universe, meaning that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent—all things are possible for Him. 

Response: It is a shame that as mortal humans we think God operates the way we do. It’s funny how, when Joseph Smith set the plates aside while removing them from the stone box in the side of the hill to look for other items of importance, that when he looked back for the plates, they were gone. Disappeared. Now, as humans, we would say that would be impossible; and of course it would be for us.
    However, the plates were gone. They had disappeared. Can we answer that with our temporal knowledge? No. Unless we think in terms of God, or an Angel operating with the full power of the Priesthood, removed them. However, for Moroni to have physically done so would have been noticeable to Joseph. But spiritual things are not noticed when operating within the veil. How the plates were transported to where they went, or in what location they were retained for 1500 years is simply unknown to us.
    We need to stop thinking in mortal terms and realize that God has a much broader plan than we understand and carries it out in what we often call "miracles."
    We do not know when Moroni buried the records, if in fact he did (we only know he intended to do so); nor do we know where he placed them. To make a statement that he did this or that when the information has not been given to us is hardly a convincing statement or argument to anyone.
    In addition, we know that several prophets and mortal beings have been given or shown a vision, as Nephi stated, he was on a mountain where he had never been before—so it is not just an imagined thing, but a physical one. As Nephi said of this occurrence: “as I sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceedingly high mountain, which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot” (1 Nephi 11:1).
    For God to have had the plates in a buried stone box in a certain place on a certain hill for 1500 years seems a little confining to God and his ability. More than likely the plates rested in some physical place within the veil until it was time for them to be placed in a stone box in a hill near where the future prophet and translator was located.
Comment: “That Moroni had to have been in New York to bury the plates is plenty of evidence to me for the whereabouts of Moroni at the end of his life.” 
Response:  We do not know where Moroni was after his last entry in the record in 421 AD. We do not know when Moroni died. We do not know where it was that he died. We do not know how he died (though it has been claimed that Joseph Smith said he was killed by the Lamanites, which is based on the following: 
     "At a meeting at Spanish Fork, Utah Co., in the winter of 1896, Brother Higginson stated in my presence that Thomas B. Marsh, President of the Twelve, told him that the Prophet Joseph Smith told him that he became very anxious to know something of the fate of Moroni, and in answer to prayer the Lord gave Joseph a vision, in which appeared a wild country and on the scene was Moroni after whom were six Indians in pursuit; he stopped and one of the Indians stepped forward and measured swords with him. Moroni smote him and he fell dead; another Indian advanced and contended with him; this Indian also fell by his sword; a third Indian then stepped forth and met the same fate; a fourth afterwards contended with him, but in the struggle with the fourth, Moroni, being exhausted, was killed. Thus ended the life of Moroni” (Charles David Evans, “The Fate of Moroni, 1897,” Archives Division, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, UT).

Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith on the evening of September 21, 1823 

While it is true that Moroni was in western New York in 1823 through 1830, during the time he led Joseph to obtaining the plates, translating, and then returning them to the room that opened in the hill, we do not know of much else about Moroni’s presence anywhere. The fact that he was there in the 1800s is no indication he was there at any other time—anything beyond that is speculation, not a testimony of fact.
    In addition to these points that we do not know, we also do not know if Moroni actually buried or hid the plates as he intended, or they were delivered to someone from within the veil. We certainly do not know when those plates were placed in a stone box in an unnamed hill in western New York.
Consequently, if all of what is not known is somehow proof to you, then go for it.

Comment: “Unless of course you think as others do that Smith did not literally find them in a box on a hill but was taken in vision to a separate place where Moroni hid them and then were given the plates by Moroni.” 
Response: In all our studies over a 35-year period on this subject, we have never heard such a claim by anyone or read it anywhere. The point is, that such an idea, while of course “under the label of anything is possible,” is not at all likely, since Joseph’s account of where he found the plates was in an area well known to him, and in what manner he obtained them was clearly stated.
    As for our understanding, Joseph found the plates as he stated: “On the west side of [the] hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box.” This hill at the time was unnamed, but later called Cumorah by the early members, though Joseph smith himself never called the hill by that name, but chose instead to call it “that hill,” “this hill,” etc.
    The problem is that we just don’t know for certain how the plates got there, or when they were placed there. Again, such claims of scenarios made that are have no factual support (other than the outcome) and are not debatable issues—we do not know any more than what the prophet told us. Unfortunately, many of these unfactual statements have become “statements of fact” among members and critics alike.
Comment: “As for the Jaredites landing in the great lakes area, I was not literally meaning that the barges traveled up river into the great lakes. but more so that they arrived in the north-East coast close to the great lakes.” 
Response: The distance from Buffalo, New York, to Manhattan’s Lower Bay is 381-miles. That means the Jaredites actually landed along the Sea East and traveled through the land later occupied by the Nephites in the Heartland Theory; or they traveled 295 miles to the area of Oswego New York through the Land Southward and away from the narrow neck into the Land Northward. None of that seems consistent with the scriptural record.   
(See the next post, “Opinions Are Not Facts – Part II,” regarding the comments made by a reader and our responses to the issue of having opinions about things that are not based on facts)