Comment #1: “The comment in Alma 22:32 of it being defensive lines of a day and a half’s journey, and a day’s journey in Helaman 4:7 must be located outside the Isthmus or narrow neck
because of the phrasing “from the east unto the west sea” and “from the west sea, even unto the east.” Thus, these defensive lines must be outside the narrow neck of land but also must be in the vicinity of the south side of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec (narrow neck of land) and must relate directly with the Pacific Ocean (west sea)” Wes B.
Response: It is unclear what you think the word “unto” means. In 1828, the word was considered “obsolete’ since “it expresses no more than to.” It is not found in the Mother Tongue, according to Noah Webster, “nor used in popular discourse.” Even today, the word is defined as “archaic term for to,” and “archaic term for until.” Even checking with the English Language & Usage, which sometimes goes far afield to find an answer, it merely states: “What are the differences between "unto" and "to"? It seems that in many contexts where the word "unto" is used, "to" could be substituted and would be perfectly correct.”
Thus, the two statements you quote should read: “from the east to the west sea,” and “from the west sea, even to the east.” Therefore, nothing changes.
Nor, by the way, are these two statements connected in any way, one being used to describe the width of the narrow neck of land (Alma 22:32) and the other used to describe the length of a defensive wall that the Nephites built to stop the northern advances of the Lamanite armies (Helaman 4:7). The first is definitely within the narrow neck of land, and the latter is obviously not.
The Quechua language is spoken mostly in three countries today, Ecuador,
Peru and Bolivia; it is also spoken in Colombia and Argentina
Response:
Yes. The other language was Aymara. However, today
Quechua is considered to be a group of at least seven languages with about 46
distinct dialects between them. But it wasn’t always like that. Just as Latin
in Europe became Spanish, Portuguese, Galician, Catalan, French, Italian,
Romanian among others, over the past centuries Quechua too has adapted and
changed—something that happens in just about all languages. Just like Latin, at
one time in the past there was a single Original Quechua from which the modern varieties
evolved. Today, 10 million people speak Quechua, which includes 13º
of the total population of peru. About 2.8 million people speak Aymara today.
It might be of interest to know that the fictional language called Huttese used in the Star Wars movies is largely based on Quechua.
Comment #3: “I don’t know if anyone else has noticed, but all your talk about Sorenson has caused me to look more critically at his Mesoamerican theory and to the specific areas of his city placement. And illogically, I found he places the location of the east-seashore cities of Bountiful, Mulek, Gid, Omner, Jershon, Morianton, Lehi, Nephihah, and Moroni near the top of the narrow neck of land. The result is that he positions these cities over the top of or in the middle of cities located in Olmec/Jaredite territory—locations that are not supported by the Mesoamerica archaeological and historical records of the first century BC.” Dixon M.
Response: Excellent point. Thank you. Mesoamericanists have an interesting of placing cities, not based on the scriptural record, but on where cities are now found in Mesoamerica.
Comment #4: “I understand that the Book of Mormon was translated by Joseph Smith in
1829. Did it take the entire year? Even so, that seems like a short time to
translate 530 pages or so” Edward S.
Response: Actually, his dictation of the translation to scribes took only about three months—April, May and June 1829. As we have described in these pages in the past, he translated the plates with the help of a seer stone that witnesses said he placed in a hat, which he then put over his face to block out the light so he could see the writing on the stone. It is a strange story, to be sure, but the surviving manuscripts do show that the text was dictated aloud, one time through—which is a heck of a way to write such a lengthy book, including with more than 200 named characters and 90 place names. Its chronology, internal geography, and genealogies are all quite consistent. There have been a few thousand changes made in the text since it was first published in 1830, but virtually all of them have been grammatical corrections; the narrative itself is basically exactly what Joseph first dictated.”
Comment #5: “Comment “I read this exchange on the internet and wondered what you thought of it…”For the past 50 years, some scholars have suggested that common Latter-day Saint usage of Cumorah confuses two different places and that the modest hill where Joseph Smith recovered the plates is not the eminence of the genocidal battles. [Fair enough; some scholars have suggested that. But it's a direct contradiction to what Oliver Cowdery said was a fact in Letter VII.] Further, the Cumorah battlefield is seen by many scholars as the key for identifying the location of the ancient lands described in the book. Hence, much rests on its correct placement. [That makes sense.] All these observations lead to a paradox explored here: before archaeology can reveal Cumorah’s secrets, it must first be employed to identify its location. [It's only a paradox if we disregard what Oliver and Joseph and David Whitmer said. Each of them had personal encounters with Moroni, unlike any archaeologist. They gave us a specific pin in the map.]
Response: This is a post, dated April 17, 2016, of Jonathan Neville’s evaluation “Fun with John E. Clark, about Clark’s article Archaeology and Cumorah Questions,” with the bracketed parts Neville’s comments about Clark’s written article. The point is, Neville spends all his effort and energy regarding Oliver Cowdery’s Letter VII article he wrote to W.W. Phelps, which we have commented on several times, pointing out how Oliver has his opinion and though he fervently feels strongly about it, it is none-the-less his opinion and not based on anything in the scriptural record said to the detail of the Cumorah battle, or the location of the Cumorah hill.
Trying to convince us that somehow Moroni told Oliver special, detailed information is out of character with the doctrines of revelation, and are not supported officially by the Church and never have been. After all, “personal encounters” with Moroni had to do with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the gospel and priesthood—it did not have to do with, as far as anything ever stated, that Moroni divulged secret information to Oliver, despite Neville wanting us to think so.
And as far as a specific pin the map, what on earth does Neville think Mormon gave us? Because of Mormon, we know where things are, not because of Oliver Cowdery. And Moroni was Mormon’s son—are we to think that Moroni knew more about Cumorah than Mormon, the man who commanded a quarter of a million soldiers in that final batter at a place he arranged and knew about?
Comment #6: “Do you really think that there are apostles of God living today?” Arthur W.
Response: Absolutely, why don’t you? Christ set up his
Church during his time in mortality, and an organization guided by prophets,
apostles, elders, seventy, etc. Far too many think of God as far away and hard
to understand, but to us and those like us, we believe that God is heavily
involved in our lives, answers prayers, has his church on earth, and guides the
world’s events based on a Master Plan that has served him in previous worlds
and the growth and eternal life of man. Why would anyone want to think that God
established man on earth, then left him to fend for himself without guidance
and hope? Or worse yet, to think that man accidentally evolved from the slime
of the earth millions of years ago?
It might be of interest to know that the fictional language called Huttese used in the Star Wars movies is largely based on Quechua.
Comment #3: “I don’t know if anyone else has noticed, but all your talk about Sorenson has caused me to look more critically at his Mesoamerican theory and to the specific areas of his city placement. And illogically, I found he places the location of the east-seashore cities of Bountiful, Mulek, Gid, Omner, Jershon, Morianton, Lehi, Nephihah, and Moroni near the top of the narrow neck of land. The result is that he positions these cities over the top of or in the middle of cities located in Olmec/Jaredite territory—locations that are not supported by the Mesoamerica archaeological and historical records of the first century BC.” Dixon M.
Response: Excellent point. Thank you. Mesoamericanists have an interesting of placing cities, not based on the scriptural record, but on where cities are now found in Mesoamerica.
Joseph Smith
translating the Book of Mormon with his wife, Emma, and early scribe
Response: Actually, his dictation of the translation to scribes took only about three months—April, May and June 1829. As we have described in these pages in the past, he translated the plates with the help of a seer stone that witnesses said he placed in a hat, which he then put over his face to block out the light so he could see the writing on the stone. It is a strange story, to be sure, but the surviving manuscripts do show that the text was dictated aloud, one time through—which is a heck of a way to write such a lengthy book, including with more than 200 named characters and 90 place names. Its chronology, internal geography, and genealogies are all quite consistent. There have been a few thousand changes made in the text since it was first published in 1830, but virtually all of them have been grammatical corrections; the narrative itself is basically exactly what Joseph first dictated.”
Comment #5: “Comment “I read this exchange on the internet and wondered what you thought of it…”For the past 50 years, some scholars have suggested that common Latter-day Saint usage of Cumorah confuses two different places and that the modest hill where Joseph Smith recovered the plates is not the eminence of the genocidal battles. [Fair enough; some scholars have suggested that. But it's a direct contradiction to what Oliver Cowdery said was a fact in Letter VII.] Further, the Cumorah battlefield is seen by many scholars as the key for identifying the location of the ancient lands described in the book. Hence, much rests on its correct placement. [That makes sense.] All these observations lead to a paradox explored here: before archaeology can reveal Cumorah’s secrets, it must first be employed to identify its location. [It's only a paradox if we disregard what Oliver and Joseph and David Whitmer said. Each of them had personal encounters with Moroni, unlike any archaeologist. They gave us a specific pin in the map.]
Response: This is a post, dated April 17, 2016, of Jonathan Neville’s evaluation “Fun with John E. Clark, about Clark’s article Archaeology and Cumorah Questions,” with the bracketed parts Neville’s comments about Clark’s written article. The point is, Neville spends all his effort and energy regarding Oliver Cowdery’s Letter VII article he wrote to W.W. Phelps, which we have commented on several times, pointing out how Oliver has his opinion and though he fervently feels strongly about it, it is none-the-less his opinion and not based on anything in the scriptural record said to the detail of the Cumorah battle, or the location of the Cumorah hill.
Trying to convince us that somehow Moroni told Oliver special, detailed information is out of character with the doctrines of revelation, and are not supported officially by the Church and never have been. After all, “personal encounters” with Moroni had to do with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the gospel and priesthood—it did not have to do with, as far as anything ever stated, that Moroni divulged secret information to Oliver, despite Neville wanting us to think so.
And as far as a specific pin the map, what on earth does Neville think Mormon gave us? Because of Mormon, we know where things are, not because of Oliver Cowdery. And Moroni was Mormon’s son—are we to think that Moroni knew more about Cumorah than Mormon, the man who commanded a quarter of a million soldiers in that final batter at a place he arranged and knew about?
Comment #6: “Do you really think that there are apostles of God living today?” Arthur W.
The First Presidency and Twelve apostles, all prophets, seers and revelators before the Visitor's Center in Rome
Every "internal model" of BoM lands I have seen --just based on the text -- ALWAYS have the hill Cumorah at the NORTH end of the land northward.
ReplyDeleteThe North Amnerican models have the Hill Cumorah SOUTH of the narrow neck of land.
No matter how much they try to canonize Letter VII this problem is an overwhelming problem with their model.
“...nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land ... even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful. And it [the land Bountiful] bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it [the land Desolation] being SO FAR NORTHWARD that IT CAME INTO THE LAND which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, [the land Cumorah] “ --Alma 22:29-30
These verses and the verses that verify that the narrow neck of land (with seas to the east and west of it that the Niagara isthmus does not have) was between the land Bountiful and the land Desolation cannot be thrown out by Letter VII.