Thursday, January 13, 2011

The Fallacy of Extremist Theories—the Baja California Theory, Part VI

Continuing from the last five posts regarding the lack of qualifications that Baja California has for a Land of Promise that matches the scriptural record, Rosenvall’s so-called Land of Many Waters, comes under suspicion.

First of all, when Baja and Mexico were joined, this area was the Sonora Desert and the dry lagoons mentioned in the last post were filled with water draining from the Colorado River flow; however, after the collapse of the San Andreas-Elsinore fault zone complex, the flow of the Colorado emptied directly into the low area now forming the Sea of Cortes and the lake beds dried up with only occasional filling from rainwater, and as part of the lower Colorado River floodplain. The same is true with Lake Hanson, just southwest of Salada.
Left: Lake Hanson in the wet season—the lake is never more than two feet deep; Right: Lake Hanson as a dry lake bed for most of the year

The peninsula is covered with mountains (sierras), with broad valleys lying between the mountain peaks. Water runs down the slopes of the mountain ranges into the Pacific Ocean and the Sea of Cortés. Due to its geological formation and to long-lasting droughts, Baja California has no large rivers. Springs are scarce and offer little water.

In fact, according to geographers and the Baja California and Baja California Sur Chambers of Commerce, the Peninsula lays claim to only two permanent rivers, the Colorado (north) and the Mulegé (south), but both claims are tenuous. The Colorado is a "Baja river" only in the sense that it forms the boundary between the Mexican states of Baja California and Sonora. Draining 260,000 square miles of the western US along its 1,450-mile course, the mighty Colorado cut the Grand Canyon out of rock, and deposited vast amounts of silt and mud into the upper Cortes. However, it has been dammed and utilized for human purposes to the point that it is now a mere trickle of its former self by the time it reaches the Cortes.
As for the second river, the Chamber of Commerce of Mulegé would have you believe that a river courses through the town. In fact, they claim that “The Mulege river flows through the valley and into an estuary which flows to the sea, edged by huge palm trees, orchards and fences where bougainvilleas of all colors tangle,” but the "River Mulegé" is actually a brackish arm of the Cortez, although it does receive small amounts of fresh water from springs above a dam. Other than these, Baja has no rivers, and there are only about six small streams that reach salt water on a more or less permanent basis.

In addition, there are only two sizable lakes in Baja. Laguna Salada and the Laguna Hanson, which is less than a mile across and is shallow and muddy. There are a number of ponds so small that they are not even graced with names.

This is hardly the area Mormon described as “we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains” (Mormon 6:4). Many, of course, is not one lake bed and one river, or a couple of isolated lakes that are mostly dry beds for most of the year. In addition, “fountains” refers to the source of numerous waters, rivers, streams, etc. That is, a fountain is where water originates, like a spring that bubble up, only in this case, large enough to feed many rivers and many waters, such as lakes.

(See the next post, “The Fallacy of Extremist Theories—the Baja California Theory, Part VII,” for more on what is not found in Baja California that is mentioned in the scriptural record)

Wednesday, January 12, 2011

The Fallacy of Extremist Theories—the Baja California Theory, Part V

Continuing from the last four posts regarding the lack of qualifications that Baja California has for a Land of Promise that matches the scriptural record, the narrow neck of land suggested for Baja is woefully lacking. As can be seen from Rosenvall’s simple map, the area of Baja California is basically a constant 50-mile width, with just a couple of notable exceptions. One is the Vizcaino Peninsula, which ends at the tip of Punta Falsa—False Point, shown below from an enhanced satellite photo (most of the details are too small to note), which shows the extension out into the Pacific that creates the Sebastian Vizcaino Bay. Rosenvall’s “narrow neck of land,” or what he calls a Defense Line, is shown to the north (yellow line).

As can be seen from this map, there are numerous canyons, cuts, and rifts among the hills that stretch from the Pacific coastal area to the Sea of Cortes. With so many passes or passages through these hills, it would be, as stated in the last post, almost impossible to guard against a military incursion. Nor is there any one pass as Mormon described (Mormon 50:34;52:9). In addition, there simply is no narrowing of the land at this point (or anywhere else in Baja except for just north of La Paz, about 110 miles north of Cabo San Lucas, the southern most point of the peninsula—making any Land Southward, a very tiny area. Thus, there is no match with Mormon’s description of “narrow neck of land” (Mormon 63:5) or “small neck of land” (Alma 22:32).

In addition, Rosenvall’s map shows an area for the “Land of Many Waters,” however, in that area of Baja, like almost everywhere on the peninsula, there is very limited water resources. The only possible place that could even be considered would be the area of Laguna Salada, located just south of the U.S. / Mexican border and west of Mexicali. The Laguna Salada is a huge dry lake bed, left over from the geologic flooding of the area when the Salton Sea and the Sea of Cortes were connected after the collapse of the Elsinore fault zone of the Andreas fault zone complex and larger rift zone. Today it is dry most of the year except for the wet season when it can completely fill from rainfall. It has no natural spring, nor is it fed by any rivers. It is across this dry lake bed that the Mexican 500 is run

The dry bed stretches south for almost 60 miles and is shaped somewhat like an hour-glass, long and skinny and very narrow at the center. During times of little rain the lakebed becomes dry and can be driven on it in most any type of vehicle. During times of significant rain the lagoon can fill completely with water. In Guadalupe Canyon, a small river flows out of the Suerra de Juarez mountains, forming waterfalls and pools in the granite rocks. However, these water sources are not large and were undiscovered in modern times until 1940, when a rancher named Don Jose Loya Murillo, was searching for strays on hourseback. The topography is rugged and difficult to traverse, even a modern road requires a high-clearance vehicle to hopefully make it through.

Upper left and right shows the rugged terrain of the Guadalupe Canyon where the river and pools are; below left shows the dry lake bed of Laguna Salada, and right, the rift of the fault line running along the hills within the dry bed.

(See the next post, “The Fallacy of Extremist Theories—the Baja California Theory, Part VI,” for more information on Rosenvall’s land of many waters)

Tuesday, January 11, 2011

The Fallacy of Extremist Theories—the Baja California Theory, Part IV

Continuing from the last three posts regarding the lack of qualifications that Baja California has for a Land of Promise that matches the scriptural record, the area they use for the narrow neck of land is woefully inadequate in matching Mormon's description.
This so-called Narrow Neck of Land, which Rosenvall chooses to label on his map as the Line of Defense, is about 45 miles across. The topography at this point is a gradual movement upward into the hills from both coasts and into the low mountains, with numerous canyons, passes, mountain-top ridges, and rifts—and all would be extremely difficult to guard against an attacking enemy across a 45-mile front. The amount of men necessary to guard such a defense line with only swords, spears and arrows, would be staggering. In addition, there would be no way to guarantee that this width could be guarded against a concentrated attack of a force coming out of one of the arroyos or cuts, and there are no tall peaks to look out over the rugged terrain to see if any force was amassing for an attack. This hardly agrees with the scriptural record suggesting that the Land Northward could be kept from an enemy.

In addition, there is no one single pass or passage through this area from south to north that would allow a military force to bottle up an enemy and keep it from penetrating into the lands beyond. Mormon wrote: “Therefore Moroni sent an army, with their camp, to head the people of Morianton, to stop their flight into the land northward. And it came to pass that they did not head them until they had come to the borders of the land Desolation; and there they did head them, by the narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward, yea, by the sea, on the west and on the east” (Alma 50:33-34). In Baja, there simply is no pass or passage through Rosenvall’s “narrow neck” that would allow an army to stop an advancing enemy in such a manner, for the enemy could simply change direction and take another route through Roenvall's narrow neck into the lands to the north.

Looking east to the coast from inland in the Rosenvall’s “narrow neck.” Note the considerable distance from the foothills to the shore and the lack of any type of pass or passage

Thus, there is no narrow pass leading from the Land Southward into the Land Northward (Mormon 2:29), that ran between the Sea East and the Sea West (Mormon 50:34). A pass that could easily be fortified to keep the Lamanites from getting around the Nephites on the north (Alma 52:9). Even a cursory look at this land of Rosenvall’s “narrow neck” shows it does not meet the scriptural requirement in any manner.

In addition, Mormon’s description of this area in the Land of Promise is that it was a “small neck of land” (Alma 22:32), a “narrow neck of land” (Alma 63:5). This obviously suggests a very noticeable narrowing of the land to provide an area nearly impenetrable by an attacking force and easily guarded against an enemy. We also find that this area was so noticeable, that it was used as the separation of lands for the treaty between the Nephites and the Lamanites (Mormon 2:29). By contrast, Rosenvall’s “narrow neck” slopes toward the seashore on the east and on the west for a considerable distance, which would have provided any army from penetrating the north countries in at least two different places besides the narrow pass.

Satellite view of Baja looking south. Note the 120 mile long straight area of the so-called narrow neck of land, which is about the same width of the entire length of Baja

(See the next post, “The Fallacy of Extremist Theories—the Baja California Theory, Part V,” for more information on Rosenvall’s narrow neck of land)

Monday, January 10, 2011

The Fallacy of Extremist Theories—the Baja California Theory, Part III

Continuing from the last two posts regarding the lack of qualifications that Baja California has for a Land of Promise that matches the scriptural record, the description of Baja’s climate, temperature, soils, etc., is far afield from Jerusalem’s Mediterranean Climate where Nephi’s seeds would have grown abundantly.
This land is so barren, not much else than cacti and other succulents grow. At times, the vegetation all but disappears, even the succulents cannot survive the frequent prolonged droughts. The boojum “tree,” which is a cacti succulent whose single trunk grows straight up, is the typical tall growth inland from the coasts. Some areas are so arid that even creosote bush, the most drought-tolerant plant in North America, grows only in drainages. The droughts in the north are interrupted by occasional deluges from passing hurricanes, and an entire year with no rain is not unusual—it is not unusual for three year droughts dropping only 1/12 of an inch of rain in 3 years.

The images of inland Baja are stark, forbidding, and extremely rugged, and the coast is often no less rugged and inhospitable.

In addition, Baja is not only a desert, and the topography considered extremely rugged as well as dry and hot, it is a difficult land to journey across or through. The early Spanish who searched for an overland trail to San Diego, ended up thinking it would be more profitable and much faster to go by sea. However, when attempting to sail along the western coast of Baja to San Diego (Rosenvall’s West Sea), the south flowing California current was so strong and difficult, it took over three months to cover what men on foot did in 50 days. Of 219 men starting out on the ship, only 100 survived when they reached San Diego Bay, and all those suffered from scurvy when they finally reached port.

And the Sea of Cortes (Rosenvall’s East Sea), better known as the Gulf of California, also has a strong south-flowing current. On a 16-deck, 6,000 passenger, 1188 feet, 225,282 ton ship last year, we felt the strong current hit the ship all the way across as we sailed around Los Cabos and across to Mazatlan on the Mexican mainland. In fact, Hernan Cortez sent Captain Francisco de Ulloa to look for a so-called island of Gold. Ulloa sailed the length of the east coast of Baja, realizing for the first time it was a peninsula—when he rounded the southern tip, he sent back a supply ship to report his findings, then pushed on into the Pacific, intending to sail up the western coast of Baja. But he and his ship were lost in the rough seas and never heard from again.

This makes the sailing of Hagoth’s ships and some twenty to twenty-five thousand emigrants sailing north in the west sea from the narrow neck of land (Alma 63:4), a three hundred mile journey in that current, an almost impossible task.

The indigenous natives of Baja belonged to three major groups: The Cochimi in northern Baja, the Guaycuras in the central section and the Pericues in the cape region. These people were hunter-gatherers and spent their days hunting small animals and fishing and gathering wild foods such as pine nuts and cactus fruit. They lived in communal groups and shelter was provided by holes in the ground covered with branches. Today the descendents of these people live primarily in the northernmost part of the peninsula and are part of the Paipai, the Kumeyaay and the Cochimi tribes.

Little more than claim-shell “middens” are found along the coasts, but inland there are cave paintings found in deep, nearly inaccessible canyons. Many paintings of figures, spirits and animals are larger than life-size. At more than 200 scattered sites across the peninsula, the early inhabitants of the island left rock art ranging from simple petroglyphs pecked on exposed rock to enormous murals painted on the walls and ceilings of rock shelters and caves.

Left: the canyon in which the caves and rock art were found; Right: a sample of the rock art

(See the next post, “The Fallacy of Extremist Theories—the Baja California Theory, Part IV,” for more information on Baja California and how their narrow neck of land does not meet the scriptural record requirements for the Land of Promise)

Sunday, January 9, 2011

The Fallacy of Extremist Theories—the Baja California Theory, Part II

Continuing from the last post regarding the lack of qualifications that Baja California has for a Land of Promise that matches the scriptural record. The climate and terrain, plant life and animals of Baja are far afield from matching the scriptural record. In fact, Baja is part of the Mojave-Sonora Desert, with 2/3 of the Baja Peninsula an extreme desert

3. Temperatures in Baja vary along the peninsula, but as a rule, temperatures are higher as you travel south, the Pacific coast is cooler than the Gulf coast, and the lower the elevation, the higher the temperature. The desert is virtually absent of frost and summer temperatures often reach above 100° F. Baja has very low precipitation typical of deserts. Mean annual precipitation on the entire peninsula is 6 inches, though there are variances throughout the peninsula, and from year to year. There are two main seasons of precipitation in Baja California. Winter storms bring gentle rains from the Pacific, but because of mountain ranges on the peninsula, these storms usually fail to reach the deserts on the Gulf Coast. The wettest storms on the peninsula come during the late summer or early fall, as chubascos. These tropical hurricanes form over warm water, close to the equator. Facing little resistance, the air masses gain speed and circling winds can top 125 miles per hour. Feeding on the warm waters of the tropical Pacific and Gulf, these storms bring large amounts of moisture. When chubascos reach ground, they often wreak havoc, but many areas of the peninsula depend on these violent storms as their main source of rain. Simply put, seeds brought “from the land of Jerusalem” would not grow in this climate.

4. Soils are very low in organic matter, and because of the high rate of evaporation, they tend to have high concentrations of salts. In flatter regions of the desert, the tightly packed soils become saturated easily and most of the water runs off during the heavy rains. Creosote bush and bur sage dominate the driest areas of the desert. Gentle sloping areas, known as bajadas, are more conducive to plant diversity. These areas accumulate the mountain erosion, with the resulting soil a mixture of rocks, gravels, sands and silts. The varying particle sizes create soil with an open structure that allows water to penetrate the surface. Again, seeds brought from the Mediterranean climate of Jerusalem would not grow there.

5. Plants. The high air, surface and soil temperatures and low humidity of deserts limits plant in animal life to species that are adapted to the harsh terrain. Desert plants tend to have small leaves and many drop their leaves in drought conditions. Some desert plants have dense coverings of hairs that protect their photosynthetic surfaces from intense sunlight and reduce water loss from evaporation. Other plant adaptations include thick leaves, which have less leaf surface area per unit of photosynthesizing tissue, fewer stomata, and structures on stomata that prevent evaporation. Many succulent plants reduce water loss by conducting photosynthesis at night when temperatures are low. Mesquite and paloverde are two trees commonly found on the peninsula. These trees can survive in the poor soil due to nitrogen-fixing bacteria in their roots that provide them with nutrition. Mesquite is common along arroyos and in low-lying deserts. Like many desert plants, mesquite has an extensive shallow root system to capture water quickly, but it also has deep tap roots to capture water from far below the surface. There are more than 110 species of cacti on the peninsula, including the world's largest cactus, the cardon. Some of the more common plants are: the Cirio, Cardon, Century Plant, Ocotillo, Prickly Pear, Candelabra Cactus, Old Man Cactus, Barrel Cactus, Cholla Cactus, Creosote Bush, Datilillo, Elephant Tree, Organ Pipe Cactus, Palo Blanco and Palm tree. This is far from a Mediterranean climate needed to grow the "seeds brought from Jerusalem."

6. Animals. The most common and widespread mammal on the peninsula is the coyote. Baja also has Mule deer, Desert Big Horn sheep, Pronghorn “antelope,” mountain lions, numerous rodents, squirrel and rabbits. There are no unknown animals, or animals like the "ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of man" that Nephi found (1 Nephi 18:25).

7. Water. Baja is considered Mexico’s most arid regions. Water is scare. Extracting water from the ground for agriculture and population causes sea water to intrude into the aquifer, making it brackish and usable. When finding a new valley area, ground water for agriculture and support of a population is believed to last only about ten years. Certainly not enough water available in the entire peninsula to support the millions of people described in the scriptural record (there are only about 2.4 million living in the entire peninsula today, and about 75% of those live along the U.S. border).

(See the next post, “The Fallacy of Extremist Theories—the Baja California Theory, Part III,” for more information on Baja California and how it does not meet the scriptural record requirements for the Land of Promise)

Saturday, January 8, 2011

The Fallacy of Extremist Theories—the Baja California Theory

Some Theorists have gone far and wide to come up with an exotic location for the Land of Promise of the Book of Mormon. As an example, there is Ralph A. Olsen’s Malay Theory, and David Rosenvall’s Baja California theory. Both of these theories are far afield from the Mesoamerican and the Heartland/Great Lakes theories, which is fine, but they are also not consistent with the scriptural record except in a minor manner. As has been shown in earlier posts here, there are at least 50 and really 65 different points illustrated in the scriptural record about the topography, geography, and circumstances of the physical Land of Promise. Neither of these come close. However, in the sake of fairness, let’s take a look at them—first, the Baja California theory.

At one time in antiquity, there was no Baja California. According to geologists, Baja was originally part of the Mexican mainland with the tip of Baja located near present day Puerto Vallarta—that is, the Pacific coast of Baja extended from south of present day San Diego clear to present day Puerto Vallarta around 21º north latitude, making Baja originally part of the Mexican mainland.

It is interesting that the time frame the geologists place on the separation of Baja from the Mexican mainland is the exact same time frame that the Andes rose upward, bringing up with it eastern South America, the Panama Isthmus, and sinking much of the present day Caribbean area. The land movements of Central and South America were attributed by geologists to submarine plate movements beneath the various land masses involved. The separation of Baja California from Mexico was due in part to the unstable plate movement to which this area is well known (According to the Department of Geography of the University of Wyoming, the geomorphology, deformation and chronology of marine terraces along the pacific coast of central Baja are not only well known, the entire Baja Peninsula is believed to be tectonically unstable, primarily because of the forces generated by plate motion), and to the collapse of the Andreas Fault from south of the Salton Sea clear to Puerta Vallarta.

At some point in time, very likely, though unprovable, at the time of the crucifixion of the Savior, if we take the geologic time scale of 4.55 billion years of age for the Earth and translate that into the approximately 13,000 years of Earth’s existence according to the scriptural record of Moses found in both Genesis and the Pearl of Great Price. In that way, both the Andes’ rise and the Gulf of Mexico’s collapse, occurred in moderately recent times---placing it around the Meridian of Time and the crucifixion.

However, setting that aside, let’s take a look at Baja California in regarding to its matching or lack of matching the scriptural record of Mormon. Beginning with the topography:

1. Baja's mountains form a largely unbroken barrier running the entire length from north to south. The mountains are actually a series of ranges each with their own name. The mountains average between 2,000 and 3,000 feet. The tallest mountains on the peninsula are the twin peaks of Picacho del Diablo, or Devil's Peak, which rise to 10,154 feet. This is 4,000 feet lower than Mesoamerica’s highest peak, and almost 13,000 feet lower than the Andes highest peaks. These mountains do not allow for Pacific moisture into the eastern gulf, which is extremely dry and much hotter.

2. The Sonoran Desert covers over 100,000 square miles, stretching from southern Arizona about 250 miles south of the border into Mexico. Because the Baja California peninsula was once attached to western Mexico, the Sonoran Desert is found on both sides of the Sea of Cortez and most of Baja California is part of this desert. There are four main sub-regions on the peninsula. These are the San Felipe Desert, the Central Coast Desert, the Vizcaíno Desert and the Magdalena Plain Desert. This makes Baja a relative desert of mountains, hills, and barren land. In addition, the northern half of Baja, which would be Rosenvall’s Land Northward, is much like the climate of southern California, but the southern half, Rosenvall’s Land Southward, is hot and humid, and sub tropical. Lehi’s seeds “brought from Jerusalem” would simply not grow in that climate, lack of precipitation, temperature, and soils.

(See the next post, “The Fallacy of Extremist Theories—the Baja California Theory, Part II,” for more about Baja’s lack of matching factors with the scriptural record)

Friday, January 7, 2011

The Ancient Nephite City of Tiahuanacu – Part VI

Tiwanaku was designed with a temple and a fortress, a palace, and other buildings within a rock perimeter wall. The fortress stands to the southwest of the Temple, the sides of the two coinciding in their bearings, and is 64 feet distant from it. It is now a great mound of earth, originally rectangular in shape, 620 feet in length and 450 in width, and about 50 feet high. It is much disfigured by the operations of treasure-seekers, who have dug into its sides and made great excavations from the summit, so that it now resembles rather a huge, natural, shapeless heap of earth than a work of human hands.

The remaining stones that environed it, and which the destroyers have spared, enable archaeologists to make out its original shape and proportions. There are distinct evidences that the body of the mound was terraced, for there are still standing stones at different elevations, distant horizontally nine, eighteen, and thirty feet from the base. There may have been more terraces than these lines of stones would indicate, but it is certain that there were at least three before reaching the summit, which coincides with what Garcilasso wrote of the mound when first visited by the Spaniards. He said of these ruins, "Among them there is a mountain or hill raised by hand, which, on this account, is most admirable. In order that the piled-up earth should not be washed away and the hill leveled, it was supported by great walls of stone. No one knows for what purpose this edifice was raised." Cieza de Leon, who himself visited Tiahuanuco soon after the Conquest, gave substantially the same description of the so-called Fortress.

On the summit of this structure are sections of the foundations of rectangular buildings, partly undermined, and partly covered up by the earth from the great modern excavation in the centre, which is upwards of 300 feet in diameter, and more than 60 feet deep. All over the Fortress and on its slopes lie large and regular blocks of stone, sculptured with portions of elaborate designs, which would only appear when the blocks were fitted together.

To the southeast of the Fortress, and about two hundred and fifty paces distant, is a long line of wall in ruins, apparently a single wall, not connected with any other so as to form an enclosure. But beyond it are the remains of edifices of which it is now impossible to form more than approximate plans. One was measurably perfect when visited by D'Orbigny in 1833, who fortunately has left a plan of it, more carefully made than others he has given us of ruins here or elsewhere.

Since 1833, however, the builders of Catholic cathedrals and buildings, unable to remove the massive stones composing the base of what was called the Hall of Justice, mined them, and blew them up with gunpowder, removing many of the elaborately cut fragments to pave the cathedral of La Paz. Enough remains, however, to prove the accuracy of D'Orbigny's plan, and to verify what Cieza de Leon wrote concerning these particular remains three hundred years ago.

The structure called the Hall of Justice occupied one end of a court something like that discoverable in the Temple. It was in the form of a rectangle, 420 feet long by 370 broad, defined by a wall of cut stones, supporting on three sides an interior platform of earth 130 feet broad, itself enclosing a sunken area, or court, also defined by a wall of cut stones. This court, at the general level of the plain, is 240 feet long and 160 feet wide. At its eastern end was a massive edifice called the Hall of Justice, of which D'Orbigny said: "It is a kind of platform of well-cut blocks of stone, held together by copper clamps, of which only the traces remain. It presents a level surface elevated six feet above the ground, 131 feet long and 23 broad, formed of enormous stones, eight making the length and two the breadth.

“Some of these stones are 25 ½ feet long by 14 feet broad, and 6 ½ feet thick—probably the ones Oiego de Leon measured slightly larger. Some are rectangular in shape, others of irregular form. On the eastern side of the platform, and cut in the stones of which they form part, are three groups of alcoves, or seats. One group occupies the central part of the monument, covering an extent of fifty-three feet, and is divided into seven compartments. A group of three compartments occupies each extremity of the monument. Between the central and side groups were reared monolithic doorways, similar in some respects to the large one, only more simple, the one to the west alone having a sculptured frieze similar to that of the great gateway.

“In front of this structure, to the west, and about twenty feet distant, is a wall remarkable for the fine cutting of its stones, which are a blackish basalt and very hard. The stones are all of equal dimensions, having a groove running around them, and each has a niche cut in it with absolute precision. Everything goes to show that the variety of the forms of the niches was one of the great ornaments of the walls, for on all sides we find stones variously cut, and evidently intended to fit together so as to form architectural ornaments."

As Nephi said, “I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance” (2 Nephi 5:15)