Merry Christmas

"And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins" (2 Nephi 25:26)

Like Moses, Isaiah and other old world prophets who testified of a Savior of the world, Nephi, Mormon and many other new world prophets in between testified of the same thing–that Jesus is the Christ.

Our posts will resume tomorrow...

Another Question About the Hill Cumorah – Part III

Continuing with the previous post regarding the Hill Cumorah and the questions Mormon’s description raises as we seek to locate the placement of that hill in the Land of Promise:     
    The problem of locating the hill Cumorah lies in three very important facts:
    1. The hill Cumorah was in the Land of Cumorah, which contained a land of many waters, rivers and fountains (Mormon 6:4);

2. The Land of Many Waters was “so far northward” (Alma 22:30) that it was beyond the Land of Desolation (Mormon 4:19-22), from which Mormon and his army had fled northward for quirt some time, perhaps as many as 5 years (375-380 AD), continually marching before the Lamanites (Mormon 6:1);
    3. The Land Northward, home of the Jaredites, contained somewhere in the neighborhood of at least 5 million, and probably closer to 10 million people (Ether 15:2, 11-12, 14-15).
    Thus, the Land Northward was not a small area, and the Land of Many Waters was toward the northernmost parts, and the Land of Cumorah was nearby. With this understanding, we might want to suggest that 90 miles, or a total land of only about 100-120 miles north to south (the distance from Provo to Fillmore [100], or from Los Angeles to San Diego[120], or from Cedar City to Fillmore [106]) is not a very large area of land, especially when it was narrow as the Land of Promise is described.
    For those who want to place the Book of Mormon hill Cumorah in upstate New York, you might want to consider these three facts, and those outlined in the previous two posts. Just because at some point in time over a 1400 year period, the records Joseph found were deposited in the hill Cumorah, is the hill described so differently in the scriptural record.

There is also another consideration. The Jaredite final battle commenced at the hill the Jaredites called Ramah, which was the same hill the Nephites called Cumorah (Ether 15:11). About this hill both sides gathered together for four years all the Jaredites left on the land except Ether (Ether 15:12, 14). Here tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of Jaredites died in battle during seven days of horrific fighting leaving only 59 still alive (Ether 15:15-25). At this same site, we know that some 300,000 or more Nephites and Lamanites died in battle. Yet, not a single artifact has been found—not arrowheads, nothing in this area where farmers have plowed the land for a century and more.
    Certainly one would think that something would have been found, but locals are adamant that nothing has ever been found on their properties.
    It is interesting that Joseph Allen, David Palmer and V. Garth Norman, all Mesoamericanists, claims as their hill Cumorah, the Hill Vigia, about 60 miles from the Isthmus of Tehuantepec pass in southern Veracruz, an area referred to as a tropical agricultural zone, often called “the Hawaii of Mexico.” This is his hill Cumorah because, among other reasons, it is located in a land of ample water and rich land to sustain the Nephite nation while preparing for the final battle.

The hill Cerro Vigia (“Lookout Hill”) in the Tuxtla Mountain Range. With its many peaks and angles, it is doubtful that a few men standing anywhere on the mountain could see the entire battlefield of dead warriors (Mormon 6:11)
The interesting point is that Mormon and the Nephites were in this area for only a very short time before the Lamanites reached it and the one-day battle took place. It is not likely that forage and water were a major issue at this time. He also claims his hill Vigia is located where Nephites could escape from the final battles and flee into the land southward because of a secluded route along the coast on the east base of the Tuxtla Mountains would be a natural unobstructed escape route to the south.
    An interesting, and superfluous idea, since there were some 400,000 to 500,000 Lamanites in the area. While Mormon mentions a “few” who had escaped into the south countries and a “few” who had defected. We don’t know how many a few are, but it is unlikely they needed a secluded route. More likely, they escaped before the fighting began as they saw the size of the Lamanite army approaching that terrified the Nephites (Mormon 6:8). Besides, it is highly unlikely they could have escaped once the fighting began—simply too many Lamanties looking to kill every Nephite they could see.

According to the Mesoamerican model for the Land of Promise, the Hill Cumorah is about 60 miles beyond the narrow neck of land, but 250 miles from their Land of Many Waters. While Mesoamerica runs east and west, Sorenson and others claim the Nephite “north” was really eastward as this map shows. In any event, they have placed Cumorah nowhere near the Land of Many Waters, which Mormon describes as part of the Land of Cumorah (Mormon 6:4)
But the problem is the distance. Of course, every Mesoamericanist wants to restrict the distance between the narrow neck of land and the hill Cumorah, but the scriptural record does not suggest that. After all, north of the narrow neck was the Land of Desolation, “it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed” (Alma 22:30), referred to as the Land of Many Waters, within which was the Land of Cumorah and the hill Cumorah (Mormon 6:4). There is no suggestion here that this was a short distance. The term “so far northward” does not suggest a short distance.
    In addition, Vigia is about 2400 feet high, and Mesoamericanists claim a person could reach the top in three to four hours; however, after the day’s battle, Mormon was so severly wounded, the Lamanites left him be and continued on past (thousands of Lamanites passed by the spot where Mormon lay). We are not told how he escaped to the hill, and of course others could have carried him, but for a severly wounded man to get up a 2400 foot hill is not very likely. It would seem that an appropriate elevation for the hill Cumorah would be about 1000 foot, ten times higher than the hill Cumorah in upstate New York, yet nowhere near as high as Vigia in Mesoamerica.

The Cerro Vigia area, about six miles from Tres Zapotes, and forty miles from the sea, was continuously occupied from 1000 B.C. to 900 A.D., and there is no evidence that there was a depopulation at any time around 385 A.D. when nearly 500,000 people died at Cumorah. Top two images are differentr view of Vigia, and the bottom is a drawing of two major hills within the mountain range, neither of which matches Mormon’s description
Another point Norman, et all, make is that Vigia was in an area of major civilization occupation during Jaredite times, and a heartland of Olmec civilization with extensive ruins during Nephite times, with subsequent cultures that qualify for Mulekites, and the later Nephite civilization. The point about this is that Mormon would not have chosen a populated area in which to make his final battle, nor could some 500,000 to 600,000 combined forces move about and fight in a populated area or one with numerous ruined buildings. Nor is a populated area listed, shown or suggested during the final Jaredite battles. After all, both Jaredite armies pitched their tents in this area (Mormon 6:4). Depending on how large were the tents and how many men per tent, or the size of the family per tent, one might get the idea that this tentscape covered a very large area around the hill Cumorah, leaving little room for this area to be previously occupied with buildings, etc.

Top, the Tuxtla Mountain Range in the Veracruz region of which Vigia is part. Bottom, the Andes Mountain Range in South America. Which would Samuel the Lamanite suggest were mountains "whose height is great"?
    In addition, Vigia is considered to be located in a region of volcanic and earthquake activity that characterized nearby land Bountiful. The Tuxtla Mountains are a volcanic range that was active in Book of Mormon times. It could also be pointed out that the range of the Andes for more than a thousand miles south of Panama is a continuous range of volcanoes, with the majority located in the area of Ecuador (the Land Northward) and have been and are active since they were formed.
    Once again, we have to recognize that almost any location can be chosen for the Book of Mormon Land of Promise and its various highlighted areas, such as the hill Cumorah, if one picks and chooses those points they wish to use to suggest and prove their model location; however, the point to all of this, and all our blogs, is for any location of any area described by Mormon in the scriptural record, then one must use all of the criteria of description, not just those parts they wish to use.
    As has been said by others, this is not a cafeteria list—you can’t pick and choose. However, all Mesoamericanists and Great Lakes/Heartland, Central and North American theorists do this. They ignore those scriptural references that disagree with their points of view. So we continue to publish what those scriptural references are an show where they are not used and do not support these numerous and erroneous views of those who place the Land of Promise in areas not supported by Mormon's many descriptions and other the scriptural references.

Another Question About the Hill Cumorah – Part II

Continuing with the previous post regarding the Hill Cumorah and the questions Mormon’s description raises as we seek to locate the placement of that hill in the Land of Promise:     
    In the sixth chapter of Mormon’s writing, he tells us a great deal about the size and configuration of the hill around which the final Nephite battle took place. When we start talking about the Hill Cumorah in upstate New York, we need to consider how it is described in the scriptural record before we accept this location.

That it was the place Joseph Smith uncovered the plates is unquestioned, however, that does not make it the one described in the Book of Mormon. As an example, we are told in the scriptural record told that “from the top of the hill Cumorah” (Mormon 6:11) Mormon and the 23 other survivors of the first day’s battle, including Moroni, could see the 23 different commands of the Nephite army, totaling 230,000 of his people (plus their women and children) who had been “hewn down” by the Lamanites during the battle the previous day.
    From this we learn:
    1. The area around the hill would need to be large enough for between 400,000 and 500,000 men, women and children to come to battle since Mormon had 230,000 men at arms in his command (the area around the hill Cumorah in upstate New York is arguably large enough for this to have occurred);
    2. The hill was high enough for the few first day’s survivors to see from the top the death and destruction of at least 400,000 people (This would be impossible from the hill Cumorah drumline in upstate New York which is only 110 feet above the surrounding valley floor);

3. The hill (shown at left in 1910) would have to be so configured for the survivors (24 men) to hide out in crags, caves, folds, etc., so as not to be seen from below by the Lamanites  (the hill Cumorah in upstate New York is not so configured—it is a drumline, a smooth sloping or curving hill like half of a barrel sticking up from the ground with nothing to hide behind except trees, and that would not have kept the Lamanites from putting an end to the fleeing survivors of that first day’s euphoric battle for them, nor deter them from going up on the hill and killing these few survivors at the conclusion of the battle);
    4. The plain around about half of the hill would also have to be so configured for the entire Nephite forces of some 230,000 men, plus wives and children to be deployed, and from there be able to see the approaching Lamanite army “marching toward them” (Mormon 6:7) with such numbers it filled “every soul with terror because of the greatness of their numbers.” (Mormon 6:8). Mormon would not have spread out his forces all around the hill, and there simply is no high ground or sloping ground that would allow people to see an approaching army of that size in upstate New York.
    5. An area not overly populated that would allow some 400,000 to 500,000 combatants to converge upon and in which no natural or man-made obstacles existed to have delayed the battle (like house-to-house fighting, etc.) that saw 230,000 men and their women and children slaughtered by the Lamanite army in the course of a single day.

Left—Hill Cumorah is the area with trees on the slopes (middle right); Right: Photo in mid 1800s, without trees, Cumorah is quite insignificant and easily overlooked
6. Before Joseph Smith uncovered the plates buried in the hill it had no name, not being significant enough for anyone living around the area to even name it. After finding the plates there, some locals began calling it Mormon Hill, Gold Bible Hill, and Inspiration Point. On the other hand, members of the Church started calling it the hill Cumorah, while Lucy Mack Smith, recalled that Joseph referred to the hill as “the hill of Cumorah.”
    7. The hill would have to be quite some distance north of the narrow neck of land, beyond the Land of Desolation, within an area called the Land of Cumorah, “so far northward (Alma 22:30) it was in a land of Many Waters, Rivers and Fountains (Mormon 6:4).” This area was the source of waters, not just lakes and rivers. Again, the hill Cumorah in upstate New York does not meet this criteria. There is plenty of water in this area, but it simply does not have fountains, or source water, it is runoff from lakes which are filled with runoff from much further north.
    8. The Land Northward, which contains the Hilll Cumorah, has an east seashore, and the hill is not far west of this sea (Mormon 9:3). The hill in upstate New York simply does not have an east sea with a seashore—no small, narrow river (Finger Lakes) can suffice for this east sea.
    9. The hill must be in a land where there are “mountains whose height is great” (Helaman 14:23) and where earthquakes have caused great destruction (3 Nephi 8:12). The hill in upstate New York does not qualify on either of these two major points--there are no mountains in this area and no earthquakes have ever struck there.
Mount Marcy, the highest point in the entire state of New York, is the rounded snow topped peak to the upper right and stands at 5343 feet (Mt Whiteface is the more pointed peak just beyond Marcy, though looking higher is 500 feet lower). These rolling Adirondack Mountains have 42 peaks over 4000 feet, but under 5000. They are hardly impressive, and would certainly not cause Samuel the Lamanite to say of them "whose height is great." This entire area is about 200 miles northeast of the hill Cumorah, which is basically a flat land in a rather flat state, which has an average elevation of just 1000 feet (By comparison, Utah has an average elevation of over 6000 feet)
10. The hill would have to be in a land where two animals, unknown in New England North America in Joseph Smith’s day, that were useful to man on a par with the elephant (Ether 9:19). The hill in New York does not meet this requirement.
11. The hill would have to be in a land where ancient roads (left) were built, and were both wide and sturdy, and led from town to town and from land to land and from place to place (3 Nephi 6:8). No such ancient roads have been found anywhere around the area of the hill Cumorah in upstate New York.
    12. The hill would have to be in a place where no other major hill or mountain existed adjacent to the hill, for it was a low-lying hill, and though only 110 feet in height, was still a singular standout for it to be set apart from other local landmarks of the area, such as a mountain, range, or a series of rolling hills, since it was known by itself to both Mormon and the king of the Lamanites, for Mormon says he “wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle” (Mormon 6:2). There is no suggestion that any other explanation to single out this hill or location was necessary. Thus, the hill Cumorah would have been in a location with little or nothing else around it, and certainly nothing of greater importance as a landmark that would allow someone not from the area (Lamanite king) to know of the hill of which Mormon spoke.
    For those who believe that the Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon was located in upstate New York, I invite you to visit the hill, walk the short distance up the slope to the top and see if you could view out over the valley and see about 400,000 dead. But keep in mind, you have to keep your head down since you are hiding from the Lamanites who could come after you at any moment.

Left: The top of the Hill Cumorah above the (foreground) valley below; Right: The top of the drumlin hill, which is completely rounded and provides a limited view of the valley around 
For many theorists, a critical question is of distance between Cumorah and the narrow neck of land.

Mesoamericanists want to limit this, because they have chosen a hill only about 90 miles from the narrow neck of land and about 22 miles from the coast, which is quite close to the narrow neck, and limits considerably the size of the Land Northward. 
(See the next post, “Another Question About the Hill Cumorah – Part III,” to see how the information Mormon wrote tells us about the Land of Cumorah and the Hill Cumorah and its location)

Another Question About the Hill Cumorah – Part I

Every so often someone asks why we post so many different articles about the same subject, such as the Narrow Neck of Land, or the Directions of the Land of Promise, or the ocean winds and currents, etc. The reason is that many subjects in the Book of Mormon about the Land of Promise cover a great deal of information, and all cannot be answered or covered in a single or even several posts. In fact, some subjects could be an entire book of their own if one were to write everything of importance about it and answer all the questions, comments, and criticisms regarding that area. In addition, occasionally new information is found or discovered that has some bearing on the Book of Mormon, such as horse and elephant remains in the Western Hemisphere that have been discovered.

Hill Cumorah in upstate New York where Joseph uncovered the plates of the Book of Mormon. Note the drumline shape (left) and the very low height (right), hardly dimensions that match the Book of Mormon account
    As an example, take the Hill Cumorah. Much has been written about this site in upstate New York as being the hill Cumorah mentioned in the scriptural account. While some claim the record is ambiguous about the subject, it does raise some interesting questions and does tell us certain things that allow us to gain some understanding about it. For the record, Mormon wrote: “And now I finish my record concerning the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And it came to pass that we did march forth before the Lamanites. And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.”
    Mormon says they were marching, which in the military, means the army was on the move. And it appears the Lamanites were not far behind them, which should tell us that the Nephites were retreating rapidly, and the Lamanites were in hot pursuit.

But more importantly, the question arises that if the Nephites were on the move and ahead of the Lamaniters, why did Mormon choose that time to write the Lamanite king and arrange for a location for a final battle? Granted, it was the custom at the time to make announcements to one another of your battle intentions, but why at that moment? The battles had been raging for years, and by this time Mormon, as well as the army, would have fully understood that: 1) The Lamanites were not going to give up, and 2) The Nephite army was insufficient to stop the Lamanites.
    Why not keep ahead of the Lamanites? Among Mormon’s army were the wives and children of his soldiers. The Nephites had already seen how the Lamanites had sacrificed their women and children on more than one occasion (Mormon 4:14, 21), and would have known that such a horrible death awaited their wives and children if they stopped to do battle once again. So why would Mormon arrange for his army to stop and fight another major battle? And why would his army stop just because Mormon wanted them to?

Why not keep going if the Land of Promise was in Mesoamerica, or the Great Lakes/heartland, or Baja California or Malaysia, since in all of these areas, the land continued to the north for hundreds to thousands of miles? After all, the last time they fought, the Lamanites so outnumbered them that they tread the Nephites under their feet (Mormon 5:6), and the result was that they “did again take to flight, and those whose flight was swifter than the Lamanites' did escape, and those whose flight did not exceed the Lamanites' were swept down and destroyed” (Mormon 5:7), which resulted in “such an awful scene of blood and carnage” that Mormon refused to describe it.
    Yet, it was during this flight that “Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto [the Nephites] that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle” (Mormon 6:2).
    Mormon did, after all, have at least three choices that held out a hope for a better result than an all-out battle against such overwhelming odds: 1) He could have continued to flee before the Lamanites, hoping that their pursuers might eventually give up, or at least that the Nephites could find a better place to try and defend themselves, or 2) Keep fleeing, but sending out small groups to attack and harry the Lamanites on their flanks, hoping to either discourage the Lamanites from continuing, or at least whittle down their numbers for a more even final battle, or 3) Detach a large enough force to hold off and delay the pursuing Lamanites while the women and children could flee to safety far to the north?

Any of these options would have been preferable to an all out final battle that could only end in the total annihilation of the Nephite forces and people, since even Mormon knew it would be the final battle of the Nephites (Mormon 6:6). Yet Mormon chose to stop and fight. Why?
    John L. Sorenson, the Mesoamerican guru in his book, An American Setting for the Book of Mormon, presented the feeble excuse that all the best land to the north had already been taken by other people and there was not enough good land to satisfy the Nephites if they went further north. Who, with their wife and children, would not continue fleeing rather than stop and be killed?
    The Dragoons of history who “ran away to fight another day” were far more successful in their next battle; Mormon could have done the same. So why did he stand and fight when death of all his people could be the only outcome?
    From a military viewpoint, there is only one possible reason to account for such an action—there was nowhere else to flee; they had reached the extent of their land and were hemmed in on the south by the Lamanties and to the east and west were only limited land spaces that would soon prove to be controlled by the advancing Lamanites—and to the north was an ocean or impassable mountains.
    Consequently, for any Land of Promise location that would provide Mormon an escape route to the north simply does not make sense. Mormon chose to stop and fight because that was his only alternative. Thus, the Land of Promise had to have had a blockage of impassable mountains or ocean to keep him from leading his people further north away from the Lamanites. After all, there is always hope that another day might bring salvation in one form or another—unless there simply was no place to go further north.

To verify this, we have the reply to Mormon’s epistle. “And it came to pass that the king of the Lamanites did grant unto me the thing which I desired” (Mormon 6:3). Since Mormon and the Nephites were hemmed in on the north and had nowhere else to flee, the Lamanite king could be generous. After all, he knew his numbers far exceeded that of the Nephites, and knew no location could overcome his most obvious superior advantage over his enemy.
    Finally, Mormon tells us: “And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites. And when three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah” (Mormon 6:4-5). What advantage Mormon thought he might have is not disclosed in his writing. Nor are his thoughts on this upcoming battle. He had a force of some 230,000 soldiers, which he divided among twenty-one captains, plus himself, and his son, Moroni. In addition to these fighting men were their wives and children (Mormon 6:7). In his battle array, Mormon placed himself and his 10,000 soldiers in front (Mormon 6:11), which were the first to fall. Yet, despite the numbers in his command—perhaps 350,000 to 400,00 (including the women and children of fighting age)—Mormon’s force trembled at the size of the Lamanite army (Mormon 6:8).
(See the next post, “Another Question About the Hill Cumorah – Part II,” to see how the information Mormon wrote tells us about the Land of Cumorah and the Hill Cumorah and its location)

The Land Northward – Part VI

Continuing with the article we ran across on the internet and decided it would make a good posting based on the numerous errors and misstatements it contained, we have used comments for their statements, and responses for our answers:    
    Comment: “The need for Mormon (Mormon 6:2) to get permission from the king of the Lamanites indicates the need to keep the Lamanites from harassing the Nephites as they gathered to the land of Cumorah.”
    Response: Since Mormon and his people would be moving northeast of the city of Jordan, and the Lamanites were to the south of the city Jordan, it would seem that being harassed on their march to Cumorah would not be a serious concern. The delay of preparing for a final battle may well have been to allow Mormon time to gather in all his Nephites, and to prepare and align them for battle.

On the other hand, earlier the Lamanite king sent an epistle to Mormon “which gave unto me to know that they were preparing to come again to battle against us” (Mormon 3:4) suggesting that it was the custom of sides notifying the other of their battle intentions. We see this also in the case of the Robbers writing to Lachoneus, the Nephite governor, in this same manner (3 Nephi 3:1, 8). 
    Now, as this moment unfolds, Mormon occupied the city of Jordan and stood off the Lamanites there (Mormon 5:3), and the following year was driven out of the city of Jordan (Mormon 5:6-7). While in flight ahead of the Lamanites (Mormon 6:1), Mormon wrote this epistle to the Lamanite king (Mormon 6:2). Thus, it is more likely that Mormon was telling the Lamanite king of his battle intentions, to which the Lamanites agreed.
    Comment: “The last land mentioned before this verse was the land of Jordan, and the Nephites were being driven northward and/or eastward of the city of Jordan.”
    Response: We really do not know in which direction Mormon was headed away from the city of Jordan, but probably north, away from the Lamanites who had been moving up from the south before this. All we really know is that he was headed toward the Land of Cumorah with the Lamanites following (Mormon 6:1, 4). Such information does not provide us with any facts as to where Cumorah was located, since we do not know exactly where the city of Jordan was located. This, like several other statements, violates the author’s earlier stated purposed of “being exact.”
    Comment: “In the Book of Ether, Omner passed the hill Cumorah on his travel to the Sea East shore, thus putting the hill Cumorah eastward of the city of Jordan.”
    Response: First of all, there is no Omner mentioned in the book of Ether. Omner was the name of one of Mosiah’s sons (Ammon, Aaron, Omner, and Himni) who did missionary work in the Land of Nephi (Mosiah 27:8-11, 34-37; 28:1-9).

No doubt what was meant was when the Jaredite Omer “passed by the hill of Shim and came over by the place where the Nephites were destroyed, and from thence eastward” (Ether 9:3). However, how far Omer went eastward before he reached “a place which was called Ablom, by the seashore,” is not known. It could have been a short distance or a long distance. Nor do we know it was eastward of the city of Jordan. It could have been far to the north of Jordan, or due east, or anywhere in between. On the other hand, far to the north in the Land Northward was a sea or area called “many waters” by the name of Ripliancom (Ether 15:8). It is recorded that Coriantumr pitched his tent by the hill Ramah, the  hill where Mormon later hid up the records (Ether 15:11).  There Coriantumr gathered all the people to his army (Ether 15:12), and there final battle took place there (Ether 15:16-17, 20-27), then Coriantumr fled and Shiz followed, overtaking Coriantumr’s army the following day (Ether 15:29), where Coriantumr killed Shiz (Ether 15:31). We do not know how far or in what direction, the armies moved away from the hill Ramah (Cumorah). Earlier, they were at the waters of Ripliancum and from there they went southward (Ether 15:10). Shiz and his army made camp (pitched their tents) in a place called Ogath (Ether 15:10), and Coriantumr and his army camped by the hill Ramah (Ether 15:11).
    In these events, the hill Cumorah is assumed to be east of the hill Shim, but west of Ablom, which was located by the seashore. However, we simply do not know how far it was from the seashore to Ablom, or how far it was from Ablom to the hill Cumorah, or the hill Shim, etc. And certainly there is no way to tie in the city of Jordan with the hill Shim, Ablom or the seashore. Consequently, we might say the hill Cumorah was near the East Sea, but we have no scriptural support for that statement. All we can say, is that the hill Cumorah was east of the hill Shim. However, where the hill Shim was located is not known other than it was many days travel from the area of the Kingdom of Shule, in which Omer had sat upon its throne. Since we do not know where that was, and we don’t know where the city of Jordan was, or the hill Shim, we in no wise can conclude that the hill Cumorah was east of Jordan.
    Comment: “The land of Cumorah and hill Cumorah were in a land of many waters, rivers and fountains.  Fountains are deep pools in rivers.  The term 'many waters' means a sea.  This puts the land of Cumorah in proximity to a sea.  Since the land of dry bones is the same as the land of Cumorah and the bones came from the armies of Shiz and Coriantumr, the sea would be the Sea East.”
    Response: First of all, as stated fully in a previous post on this article, fountains are the source of waters, like streams, rivers, etc. It means source or beginning. And "many waters" does not equate to a sea, but waters such as lagoons, bays, inlets, lakes, pools, etc. Secondly, there is no reference to place Cumorah next to the Sea or even near it. Thirdly, the land of dry bones is not referenced near a Sea, but within a land of many waters. When we realize the Land of Nephi stretched from the east sea to the west sea, we cannot equate a “land” as being small. The Land of Cumorah could be many miles across, and though one end of it might be near something, it does not mean that a specific area in that land is also near it.

As for the bones coming from Shiz and Coriantumr’s final battles, this is not indicated in the scriptural record. The bones found by Limhi’s expedition were more likely from the dead indicated in earlier fighting which was “so swift and speedy was the war that there was none left to bury the dead, but they did march forth from the shedding of blood to the shedding of blood, leaving the bodies of both men, women, and children strewed upon the face of the land, to become a prey to the worms of the flesh” (Ether 14:22). The location of these bones covered such a large area that “And the scent thereof went forth upon the face of the land, even upon all the face of the land; wherefore the people became troubled by day and by night, because of the scent thereof” (14:23). After this, Shiz pursued Coriantumr eastward to the borders of the seashore where they fought for three days (Ether 14:26). At this point two million of Coriantumr’s people had been killed (Ether 15:2), and at this time the armies fled northward to the waters of Ripliancum, and from there southward to Ogath (Ether 15:10), which was adjacent to the hill Cumorah as pointed out above. Once again, there is little here in which to develop places on a map except in the most general and useless terms.
    Comment: “Mormon had used the phrase 'north countries' earlier in Mormon 2:3.  Since the north countries refer to the countries in the narrow neck, the south countries would be countries southward of the narrow neck.  There is insufficient information regarding which countries those might be.”
    Response: First of all, there were no “countries” in the narrow neck. “Narrow” by definition is “narrow” and when Mormon also called it a “small neck,” the word “small” by definition is “small”! Thus, the neck would have been small and narrow (small or short in length and narrow in width), no place for any countries to be located, no not even one. Secondly, it is likely that Mormon did not know which countries those of his army fled to—he only knew they went southward. Moroni, later, called the area to which some escaped the “country southward” (Mormon 8:2)
    As we can see from all of these statements by the author of the internet article, the vast majority of them are inaccurate, do not follow the meaning of the scriptural record, use a lot of add-on information not consistent with the scriptural record, are not exact, and in short, violate his first several statements found in Part I of this six-part series, i.e., "The Book of Mormon states that the contents of the book are first-hand descriptions by the people that lived in the lands they were describing. If so, then as first-hand descriptions, the descriptions would be accurate. A first-hand account should be accurate without having to rely on any archaeological evidence."
    We might add to that, nor do we need to alter, change, or mis-use or mis-quote those first-hand descriptions as this author so willingly does.

The Land Northward – Part V

Continuing with the article we ran across on the internet and decided it would make a good posting based on the numerous errors and misstatements it contained.The comments are from the article, the responses from us:    
    Comment: “In 3 Nephi 6:2, after defeating the robbers, the phrases 'on the north' and 'on the south' are general phrases that encompass more area than the land northward and the land southward”
    Response: The entire statement is: “And it came to pass that they had not eaten up all their provisions; therefore they did take with them all that they had not devoured, of all their grain of every kind, and their gold, and their silver, and all their precious things, and they did return to their own lands and their possessions, both on the north and on the south, both on the land northward and on the land southward.”

Now, on the north and on the south are not general phrases, but places within the Land Southward, telling us that the Nephites returned to their homes in the Land Southward (between blue arrows), both in the north and the south (red arrows). The reason for this is simple--in the Nephite nation, there were two divisions of land, the Land Southward, where most of their history takes place, and the Land Northward, which evidently was not opened to settlement until the last century B.C. (Helaman 3:3). Now, within their major homeland, the Land Southward, there were two divisions--the Land North and the Land South, divided by the narrow strip of wilderness that separated the Land of Zarahemla and the Land of Nephi. While we may not, the Nephites thought of these two areas as separate areas within the Land Southward, and so referred to them as such from time to time.
    We might recall, as an example, that when Captain Moroni made his title of liberty, he: “poured out his soul to God, he named all the land which was south of the land Desolation, yea, and in fine, all the land, both on the north and on the south—A chosen land, and the land of liberty” (Alma 46:17). That is, he referred to the Land Southward, and within that, the land on the north and on the south. We see this stated more clearly with “And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites; and they did have an exceeding plenty of gold, and of silver, and of all manner of precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north” (Helaman 6:9).

Finally, “Now the land south was called Lehi and the land north was called Mulek, which was after the son of Zedekiah; for the Lord did bring Mulek into the land north (blue arrow), and Lehi into the land south” (red arrow) (Helaman 6:10). Now, since Mulek (the people of Zarahemla) landed in the Land Southward (green and blue land areas), “And they journeyed in the wilderness, and were brought by the hand of the Lord across the great waters, into the land where Mosiah discovered them; and they had dwelt there from that time forth” (Omni 1:16), we see that this north and south division is only within the Land Southward. The division of this Land Southward, was at the narrow strip of wilderness, between the Land of Nephi, including the area of First Landing, and the Land of Zarahemla, including the Land of Bountiful and other minor lands mentioned in these lands.
    Comment: “When Zemnarihah gave “command unto his people, that they should withdraw themselves from the siege, and march into the furthermost parts of the land, northward” (III NEPHI 4:23)—this is not a reference to the land northward.  The phrase 'parts of the land, northward' does not directly refer to the land northward, but to areas northward of the land southward and the one place.”
    Response: By including a comma between “land” and “northward,” it appears this comment has validity, however, the actual scripture quoted has no comma between land and northward, reading: “and march into the furthermost parts of the land northward” (3 Nephi 4:23). Obviously, the record shows that this comment is about the Land Northward. It is fallacious and disingenuous to add or delete punctuation in order to try and change the meaning of a statement in the scriptural record. It is the worst kind of scholarship!
    Comment: “Mormon states: ‘And the Lamanites did give unto us the land northward; yea, even to the narrow passage which led into the land southward." The term 'passage' is the only time this term is used in the Book of Mormon.  The term 'pass' is also used differently than 'neck'.  The narrow pass is between the land northward and the land southward.  This puts it in or near the narrow neck.  The narrow neck runs from the Sea West to the Sea East.”

Response: The term “pass” is different from “narrow neck,” since the latter is an area (a stretch of land) and the former is a means through that area. Since there is only one land mass (Narrow Neck) between these two lands (Land Northward and Land Southward), the pass (green arrow) or passage must be within the narrow neck (yellow arrow). As for the narrow neck, it does not run from the Sea West to the Sea East, it actually runs from the Land Southward to the Land Northward (Alma 22:32). The narrow pass that ran through the narrow neck, ran past the Sea East and the Sea West (Alma 50:34). Thus, the narrow neck ran between the seas, not to them.
    Comment: “The term 'passage' indicates a length.”
    Response: This is not correct. The term “passage” is the same as the term “pass.” In fact, under the definitions of “pass” is the statement: “noun: passage.” And as a noun, we find this definition for pass: “A way, such as a narrow gap between mountains, that affords passage around, over, or through a barrier.” A “narrow pass” is defined as “especially one [pass] between mountains.” The definition of “passage” is “corridor,” “pass,” “passageway” “the act or process of moving through, under, over, or past something on the way from one place to another.” These two terms can often be used in place of one another, and do not suggest anything other than a pass from one point to another. While “pass” tends to bring to mind a passage between mountains, a “passage” could be used for other surroundings, even such as a corridor in a building or a tunnel. But because pass and passage can be used to describe the same thing, it is likely they are being used here for the same area. This is especially born out by the fact that there is only one land source between the Land Southward and the Land Northward, called a “small neck” and “narrow neck,” and within it is a “pass” and on one occasion called a “passage.”
    Comment: “So, a narrow passage indicates that part of the distance from the narrow neck to the land northward is a narrow area that was navigable.”

Response: The term “navigable” is generally used with a waterway or sea, “able to be sailed on by ships or boats.” It can be used for a track or road, but to keep from miscommunicating, one might want to use “passable” rather than “navigable.” And the narrow pass or passage would have, indeed, been narrow and ran from the Land Southward into the Land Northward through the Narrow Neck of Land.
    Comment: “The city in the land Desolation where Mormon was defending the narrow pass is in a strategic spot to defend.  So, the narrow pass is in a strategic spot.  This verse also indicates that the narrow pass is key to preventing the armies of the Lamanites from getting to their lands (the land northward).  There is no other way to get to the land northward except through the narrow pass.”
    Response: This is absolutely correct so long as it is understood that this narrow pass runs through the narrow neck of land, which, by the way, should eliminate Mesoamerica as the Land of Promise and the Isthmus of Tehuantepec as the narrow neck of land.
    Comment: “In Mormon 6:15, it says that some Nephites left the area of the hill Cumorah and went to the south countries.”
    Response: The record says: “also a few who had escaped into the south countries” (Mormon 6:15), which should suggest they just didn't leave the area of Cumorah, but were fleeing for their lives. 
    Comment: “It is interesting to note that there is no mention of people escaping to the north, away from the general Lamanite population.”

In the Mesoamerican model, there would have been all sorts of room to flee northward rather than stand and fight at Cumorah since the land runs continually northward into Mexico, the United States, and Canada. At the point of their Cumorah, the land is about 300 miles across (Veracruz to Acapulco), and actually 600 miles of land east to west. However, in the Land of Promise there was no egress northward. Mormon could only stand and fight along with all the Nephites. This is just another of many reasons that Mesoamerica does not fit Mormon’s descriptions of the Land of Promise
    Response: The main reason for this, though no Mesoamericanist is going to agree, is that there was no way to go to the north. If there were, Mormon would not have led his army to a battle he knew he could not win, but would have tried to escape further north. But even if Mormon did not want to do that (he was 75 years old), at least those of his army with their wives and children, certainly would have tried to escape to the north. But there was nowhere to go to the north—the only direction escape might have seemed possible was to the south, and that’s where some went, only to be “hunted by the Lamanites until they were all destroyed” (Momon 8:2).
(See the next post, “The Land Northward – Part VI,” for more information from the Article and our responses to it)

The Land Northward – Part IV

Continuing with the article we ran across on the internet and decided it would make a good posting based on the numerous errors and misstatements it contained:    
    Comment: “Alma 63:7 shows that Hagoth's ship went to the land northward and returned in less than a year.  The borders of land Bountiful and the land Desolation by the narrow neck by the west sea was the port for the ship.  The phrase 'to the land northward' indicates that the land northward did not border the narrow neck and did not include the land Desolation (which did border the narrow neck).”
    Response: Actually, the statement is that the ship went north in the thirty–seventh year, and returned in the thirty–eighth year—which could have been one year, or almost two years (Alma 63:4, 7). 
By comparison, in the 18th century, a sailing voyage from England across the Atlantic to Philadelphia took 60 to 80 days--3 months tops. With 4 months refitting, refurbishing and restocking, a direct round trip of about 7,000 miles could take approximately one year or less--obviously a far greater distance than Hagoth's ships traveled
    As for the phrase cited, it is at the end of a sentence describing that the first ship, after returning to the northward indicates the land northward is not close to the narrow neck port along the northern coast of the Land Bountiful by the narrow neck, set out again for the Land Northward. The actual shipyard and port was not located in the Land Northward, or in the narrow neck of land, but in the northern extreme limit of the Land Southward (Land of Bountiful). The location is described as “on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward” (Alma 63:5). Thus, the shipyard was by the narrow neck, on the borders of the land bountiful by the Land Desolation. There is absolutely no suggestion anywhere in the scriptural record to suggest that the land of Desolation was not in the Land Northward.
    Comment: “People were leaving the land of Zarahemla to go to the land northward, and “they came to large bodies of water, and many rivers” (Helaman 3:4).  The term 'bodies' is plural, so there were at least two large bodies of water (lakes) and many rivers near, or in, the land northward.  No fountains are mentioned in the description.” 

Response: The area in the Land Northward associated with “bodies of water” are more correctly referred to as an area of “many waters” (Mosiah 8:8). In Helaman the description of reaching this land was: ”they did travel to an exceedingly great distance,” (Helaman 3:4) and the term is “large bodies of water and many rivers.” In Mosiah, they “traveled in a land among many waters” and the land was “covered with bones and with ruins of buildings.” Mormon himself uses the term “many waters, rivers, and fountains” (Mormon 6:4) which was in the Land of Cumorah, an area far north in the Land of Northward. In Ether, the area of the hill Cumorah—the Jaredite hill Ramah (Ether 15:15:11)—was just south of Ripliancum, the large body of water that “exceeded all” (Ether 15:8). When putting all three of these together, we find one land of many waters, where there were rivers and fountains as Mormon described it, that was in the northern part of the Land Northward. The idea that the word “fountain” was not included in each of the three descriptions should not be taken as a reason to say these were separate places. In this sense, then, “bodies of water” should not be taken as a separate place from “many waters,” and therefore, the term “bodies” is not to be construed as at least two when compared with “many,” which should be interpreted as far more than two—in fact, the definition is “a large (numerous) number.”
    Comment: “The land Northward is northward of the land of Zarahemla by an 'exceeding great distance'.  It is interesting to note that the land northward has at least one large body of water and that the Jaredites a few hundred years before the Nephites describe in the Book of Ether a large body of water in the northernmost parts of their land as the waters of Ripliancum.”

Response: All the land north of the narrow neck (blue arrows) is called the Land Northward (red arrow). The fact that it extends a considerable distance (“exceeding great distance”) only means that the land is large. It cannot be translated as saying there was a land far to the north of the narrow neck of land that was called the Land Northward. That it began just past the narrow neck is seen: “he also sent orders unto him that he should fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward” (Alma 52:9) and also “by the narrow neck which led into the land northward” (Alma 63:5—see also Alma 22:32; 50:11; 50:34; 51:30).
    Comment: “Helaman 3:8 tells us those who went into the Land Northward and that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south, to the sea north, from the sea west, to the sea east. This is the only reference to the sea north and the sea south and there is insufficient information in this verse to place the sea north and sea south in relation to any other location.”
    Response: The statement “from the land southward to the land northward” should make it clear that both in the Land Southward and in the Land Northward, the Nephites multiplied and spread from sea to sea, i.e., from the east to the west and from the north to the south. Stated less colorfully, the Nephites spread from sea to sea and covered all four quarters of the entire land. The placement of the north and south seas should be quite clear to anyone but a Mesoamericanist--there were four seas and they lay in each of the four cardinal directions: north, south, east, and west. That the Land of Promise was an island (2 Nephi 10:20) should then tell us that the Land of Promise was surrounded by water--only continual body of water, which was given names by the Nephites according to the cardinal directions.

Comment: “This puts the land of Zarahemla close to the land southward.”
Response: The City of Zarahemla and the Land of Zarahemla (red arrow) are within the greater Land Southward (yellow arrow), not close to it. This is borne out by numerous scriptures throughout the Book of Mormon, beginning with Mormon's insertion in Alma 22:27-34).
    Comment: “It was easier to get wood to the land northward by ship from the area around the narrow neck than by an overland route.  This also indicates that there was a port near the land northward to offload the timber and either the land northward bordered the Sea West or there was a route from the port to the land northward.”
    Response: We don’t know that it was easier to go by ship. It could have been cheaper. It could have been less dangerous. It could have been faster. There could have been some physical obstacles between the narrow neck and the specific place the lumber was to reach preventing an overland route (canyon, mountain, etc). There may have been a port, docks, etc., or the lumber might have been offloaded by barge.And as stated above, there is no mystery about the west sea and the land northward--the sea surrounded the land northward since it was an island!
     Comment: “In 3 Nephi 3:24, the term 'fortify' indicates the area where they were located had a distinct boundary since fortification is done around a specific area.”

Response: When the early pioneers circled the wagons against an Indian attack, they did not have a specific area that delineated their fortification—only the extent that their wagons would encircle within reason (large wagon trains had two circles, one inside the other). The Nephites were not fortifying an area, but fortifying where they were, to protect themselves against expected attacks by the Robbers.
    Comment: “The phrase 'in the land southward' also indicates an area distinctly different than the areas that the Nephites occupied.  If the land southward referred to all of the lands southward of the narrow neck, then most of the Nephites would have already been in the land southward and there would have been no need to move to another area.  This implies that the land southward is a specific area.  The area had to sustain tens of thousands (III Nephi 3:16), so it is a fairly large area.”
    Response: There seems to be a continual problem here as to where the Land Southward is located, and what the scriptural record says from time to time when, in all reality, it is quite clear. In this case, because the Land Southward is a very large area, the people were told to gather in “the center of our lands” (3 Nephi 3:21). What does that mean? Consider that the population of South Bend, Indiana, is 101,081 (2011), and the seating capacity of Notre Dame stadium is 80,795. On game day the city is pretty much vacant as 80,794 people flood into the house that Knute Rockne built. Or stated differently, 80,795 people went from a much larger area (the town-about 41 square miles) to a smaller area (the stadium, a few acres), but within the same area (town of South Bend).

As for the Nephites, they went from a larger area (the Land Southward overall), to a smaller area—the Land of Zarahemla to the narrow neck of land (3 Nephi 3:23), but still within the overall Land Southward.
(See the next post, “The Land Northward – Part V,” for more information from the Article and our responses to it)