More Comments from Readers – Part V

Comment #1: “I Like the part of the title of your blog that says "Lehi never saw mesoamerican" and you should add "Lehi never saw south america." I have seen your maps and the distances, but in no way fit the distances described in the BoM. BoM describe short mileage, not hundreds or thousands of miles. Seems you attack Olive's books, which is the most accurate of all to the truths of the BoM, yet you ignore your immense level of flaws... mileage being one big one” Miles M.

Response: Thank you for your comment; however, if you are going to criticize a view, perhaps you should know more about the view you are criticizing. As for Lehi’s landing being in South America, we refer you to that book Lehi Never Saw Mesoamerica, which is not just a clever statement, but an 800-page book of hundreds of referenced facts and scriptural citings to back up the claim.
Secondly, we have discussed distances we have discussed many times, specifically in the two areas of: 1) No distances are described in the Book of Mormon that can be used with any semblance of accuracy, and 2) while the events described in the Book of Mormon tend to show a more compact area, we need to keep in mind that most of the text deals with events between the Land of Nephi and the Land of Zarahemla, a rather compact area, or between the Land of Zarahemla and the Land of Bountiful, another rather compact area, or at the end, only in the Land Northward, with most of that close to the narrow neck, another rather compact area.
    As for your comment about not even hundreds of miles, it should be considered that one can figure out the distance of 21 days of travel, which all writers on the subject place this somewhere between about 400 and 500 miles. However, we do not place that figure so low or any distance for the reasons we have discussed numerous times. On the other hand, at a minimum of 15 miles a day, 21 days of travel would still be 300 miles or so—placing the Waters of Mormon a distance of 315 to 375 miles from the Land of Zarahemla. However, the valuable of that is questionable since the Waters of Mormon are an unknown distance from the City of Nephi, and the Land of Zarahemla is an unknown distance from the city of Zarahemla. Still, it is at least hundreds of miles.
    Such reading, of course, can be misleading, but only if one tries to place a specific distance on a place. As an example, how far did Nephi travel from the Land of First Inheritance to what they called the Land of Nephi? How far is many days travel? It is an idiom in Hebrew language to mean almost any distance, so how can you determine how far they traveled? You cannot. And as such, you cannot say it was not far, or very far. It is simply an unknown.

Three unknown distances: 1) from City of Nephi to Waters or Mormon; 2) Waters of Mormon to the Land of Zarahemla; 3) Land of Zarahemla to the City of Zarahemla

Third, how on earth can one come up with any distances at all other than the 21 days of Alma’s travels from the Waters of Mormon to the Land of Zarahemla, and that is completely misleading as stated above. Best not to throw stones at someone’s maps and distances when such an unknown factor exists. What we do know, is that 21 days of travel between somewhere near the City of Nephi and the Land of Zarahemla took 21 days of travel to reach. That is not a short distance under any circumstance—especially when you are fleeing for your life.
Comment #2: “Do we know what happened to the Small Plates after Amaleki finished with them and they were delivered to King Benjamin?” Dana T.

Response: We can trace fourteen specific steps or events, by mentioning each individual who takes possession of them:
1. King Benjamin delivers the plates to his son Mosiah who becomes the final Nephite king (124 BC).
2. Mosiah places them in the possession of Alma's son, Alma the younger (92 BC). This Alma had been converted miraculously and later becomes the first chief judge of the people. He eventually gives up the office of chief judge to spend full time in his other office of high priest of the people.
3. Alma passes the plates along to his son, Helaman (74 BC) who valiantly leads the two thousand stripling warriors at the same time that Captain Moroni is leading the Nephite army in other parts of the land.
4. The plates eventually end up in the possession of Helaman's son Helaman, but prior to that, they are held for a four-year period by the older Helaman's brother, Shiblon (57 to 53 BC). The younger Helaman writes the large part of the book of Helaman, serves as a righteous chief judge in Zarahemla, and sees the rise of the Gadianton robbers.
5. Helaman hands the plates on to his son Nephi (39 BC) who, with his brother Lehi, preaches valiantly and converts thousands of Lamanites. At one point Nephi and his brother are protected from destruction in a Lamanite prison by a miraculous protective ring of fire. Nephi later preaches from his garden tower and miraculously predicts the murder of the chief judge Seezoram.
6. Nephi disappears mysteriously, but not before he delivers the plates to his son Nephi (1 AD), who is the prophet during the time of great wickedness between the time of the Savior's birth and the Lord's appearance at the temple in Bountiful. Nephi eventually becomes one of the Lord's twelve disciples or apostles.
7. Nephi is succeeded by his son, also named Nephi. This Nephi dies in 111 AD.
8. The record is then kept by his son Amos, who keeps the record for eighty-four years and dies in 194 AD.
9. Amos gives the record to his son also named Amos. This Amos dies in 305 AD.
10. Amos's brother Ammaron keeps the record in his stead. In 320 AD Ammaron is constrained by the Holy Ghost to hide all the sacred records in a hill called Shim. After hiding the records, Ammaron is inspired to approach a boy named Mormon who is ten years old at the time and command him that when he reaches the age of twenty-four, Mormon should remove from their hiding place the large plates of Nephi and take possession of them.
11. Mormon does so in 335 AD. Years later, Mormon abridges the large plates of Nephi onto another set of plates, the plates of Mormon (380 AD). Mormon is eventually slain by Lamanites in about 385 AD. Before his death he hides the large plates of Nephi in the hill Cumorah.

12. Mormon gives his abridgement and the small plates to his son Moroni, who finishes them and hides them before his death.
13. Moroni shows where the plates are hidden in the Hill Cumorah in western New York to Joseph Smith who eventually retrieves them and translates the writing into the Book of Mormon.
14. Joseph Smith, along with Oliver Cowdery, return the plates to the New York Hill Cumorah where an opening occurs and they enter a room where piles of other plates are stacked around the room. They place the plates on a table and leave.

More Comments from Readers – Part IV

Here are more comments that we have received from readers of this website blog:
Comment #1: “I take exception to your belief that the continent of South America was once underwater and came up with the rising of the Andes. Of all the stupid claims I have ever heard, this one beats them all” Carlos S.

Geological map of ancient South America when numerous seas covered most of the Amazon Basin and parts of Patagonia

Response: The fact is there is simply no question among scientists and geologists that South America was once disconnected to Central America above the surface, and the eastern portion of the continent was under the surface. According to Norman R. Stewart, “Andes Mountains—Mountain System, South America (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2014) “The collision (or convergence) of two of these plates—the continental South American Plate and the oceanic Nazca-Plate—gave rise to the orogenic (mountain-building) activity that produced the Andes.” Many of the rocks comprising the present-day cordilleras began as sediments eroded from the Amazonia craton (or Brazilian shield)—the ancient granitic continental fragment that constitutes much of Brazil—and deposited on the craton’s western flank. The weight of these deposits forced a subsidence (downwarping) of the crust, and the resulting pressure and heat metamorphosed the deposits into more resistant rocks; thus, sandstone, siltstone, and limestone were transformed, respectively, into quartzite, shale, and marble.
    At one point this complex geologic matrix began to be uplifted as the eastern edge of the Nazca Plate was forced under the western edge of the South American Plate (i.e., the Nazca Plate was subducted), the result of the latter plate’s westward movement in response to the opening of the Atlantic Ocean to the east. 
    This subduction-uplift process was accompanied by the intrusion of considerable quantities of magma from the mantle, first in the form of a volcanic arc along the western edge of the South American Plate and then by the injection of hot solutions into surrounding continental rocks; the latter process created numerous dikes and veins containing concentrations of economically valuable minerals that later were to play a critical role in the Andes.

Mountain Building from Subduction, which also causes land to rise

“The intensity of this activity increased until the present shape of the cordilleras emerged, exhibiting an extraordinary vertical differential of more than 40,000 feet between the bottom of the Peru-Chile (Atacama) Trench off the Pacific coast of the continent and the peaks of the high mountains within a horizontal distance of less than 200 miles. The tectonic processes that created the Andes is still continuing—the system, part of the larger circum-Pacific volcanic chain that often is called the Ring of Fire, remains volcanically active and is subject to devastating earthquakes during these events and ever since.”
    Your argument is not with us, but with the geologists who have written extensively about this event, drawn models, shown maps of South America before, during and after this uplift of the Andes and the eastern part of the continent rising above the surface. The only problem is the difference in the time frame between “Old Earth” scientists, claiming the Earth is 4.55 billion years old, and the claims of the scriptures, Old Testament, Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price, and the Book of Abraham. It would seem that the Lord’s time frame trumps all others, certainly that of science, whose “Old Earth” has been pushed back centuries, then millennium just in my lifetime by evolutionists who kept claiming they needed more time for their “Anything can happen given enough time” theory.

Comment #2: “I read on the internet that Jarom was written by a descendant of the prophet Nephi. I thought he was Jacob’s descendant” Ellen W.
Response: You are correct, the internet article is wrong (probably you were reading in the so-called Book of Jarom on Wikipedia). Jarom was not Nephi’s descendant, but they were related. Jarom was Nephi’s grand or great nephew, i.e., the grandson of Nephi’s brother, Jacob, making him Lehi’s descendant, but not that of Nephi.
Comment #3: “As a side note, according to very believable legends, Joseph of Arimathea, the great uncle of Jesus, was a Roman officer in charge of the shipping of tin from Cornwall to places in the Mediterranean. And the legends are that Jesus went with him to Cornwall possibly for many of the years unaccounted for in the gospels. When the time comes for every hidden thing to be revealed in the last days, it will be interesting to see if this is true. But until then one can read books like: "The Drama of the Lost Disciples" erichard.

Joseph of Arimathea was a rich and prominent member of the Sanhedrin and a secret disciple of Christ, who disagreed with the decision and action of the religious body to condemn Jesus 
Response: For a Jew (especially of high standing) to be a Roman Officer in the century of Jesus would be highly unlikely. In fact, at this particular time, and beginning in the last century B.C., officers of the army were generally highly motivated by politics and a political ambition (which led to the triumvirate). Rome did not put non-citizens in a position to effect their own inner politics. Even before this time the positions of officers of the Roman army were based social class within the Roman citizenry. For a non-citizen, it took 25 years in the military service to gain citizenship for themselves and their family.
    It was also a fact that military service of citizens was of paramount importance to a Roman’s political career. War veterans received colonial lands, which, when this did not happen in 14 AD, an army in central Europe mutinied over the State’s failure to provide land plots for soldiers. It should also be noted that officer’s advancements and eventual fortunes were tied directly to their generals’ political careers. Since the Romans hated the Jews and barely tolerated their religion, typically “washing their hands of such matters” the likelihood of a Jew of faith being in the Roman army was unlikely, and being an officer highly unlikely.
    Prior to the time of Christ, beginning around the Second Samnite War (326-304BC), a change in plebian status occurred, and over the next few centuries, plebes achieved certain status and were always working toward nobilitas (nobility) with an eventual political career in mind—which is simply not something that would have been open to non-citizens—even with 25 years service and promotion to citizenship. Rome did not completely trust any non-Roman.
    Although nobilitas was not a formal social rank, it was at the same time a social rank of notice, and plebeians whose ancestors were consuls were considered nobles. During this Republican era, in general a plebeian who had attained the consulship was regarded as having brought nobility to his family. Such a man was a novus homo (a new man) or self-made noble and his sons and descendants were nobiles.
    This was such a highly protected movement in society it was not allowed or even considered for non-citizens. And since serving as a military officer worked toward this achievement, it would be strange indeed to find a Jew as an officer in the Roman army.

The basic Roman army that we see in movies and read about in stories was the one formed about 40 B.C., and all the legions formed the Roman army’s elite heavy infantry, recruited exclusively from Roman citizens—in fact, most of these legions formed before 40 B.C. were still in service and active two or three centuries later. However, not long after Christ’s time, this changed from legions in control and making up the vast majority of the (citizen) military to auxiliary units which were not citizens.
Comment #3: “What exactly was the Treasury of Laban? Was it a bank? Storehouse? Of what?” Dennis B.
Response: Good question. Rabbi Yosef in his website of the past answered such a question by saying “Laban's "treasury" in First Nephi made sense in the Hebrew and in ancient Israel.” According to the Book of Mormon, the treasury was where Laban kept sacred records. Rabbi Yosef explained that it makes excellent sense, being "exactly in keeping with the culture and language." 
    "Treasury" in Hebrew is "genizah," a word also used for a room in ancient synagogues where scrolls were stored. By way of support, Rabbi Yosef explained: “The early "Church Father" Epiphanius, in his Panarion, section 30, relates the story of a Jew named Josephus (Yosef) who became a believer in Messiah after reading Hebrew copies of Acts and John which he found in a "genizah" (treasury) in Tiberias, Israel” (Epiphanius; Panarion 30:3, 6). You may also have heard of an archaeological find known as the "Cairo Genizah," in which such an ancient store room of scrolls was found in the remains of an ancient synagogue.
    By the way, how many New York farm boys would have known about an ancient Jewish practice of storing sacred records in a "treasury"? This is just one of many dozens of subtleties in the text pointing to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

More Comments from Readers – Part III

Here are more comments that we have received from readers of this website blog:
Comment #1: “Do you think the re-gathering of the Jews has now been accomplished?” Quinn T.
Response: According to the Pew Research Center of March 8, 2012, Jews have the highest rate of migration of any religion.  And according to Jonathan Sarna, a professor of American Jewish history at Brandeis University, "the vast majority of world Jewry lives in one of two countries.  Of the 13.3 million Jews worldwide, 43 percent live in Israel and 39 percent live in the United States."  Fully 82% of all Jews worldwide have already gathered (as of 2012) to these two covenant lands of promise. That leaves only 18% and there is no way of knowing if the gathering of Israel is to be a 100% statistic or not. However, it seems that the gathering of Israel is in its windup scene, if not completed.
Comment #2: “Exactly who is the Western Hemisphere a land of promise for?” Robt W.
Response: At least that portion of the Hemisphere that is covered in the Book of Mormon is for Lehi’s descendants, whoever and however many that may be. Many years ago, there was an attitude among members that the North American continent was for the House of Ephraim, and the South American continent was for the House of Manasseh. Since Lehi was of the house of Manasseh and Ishmael of the house of Ephraim, this might give us some clue.

The division of Lehi's Land of Promise

Comment #3: “There is one problem which keeps popping up in regards to the divide of the land south and north and that is the Jaredite records in the book of Ether. It seems to indicate that there were no poisonous snakes in the land north but many in the land south and that for a time they were so abundant in the border region that travel to the land south were lethal” Thomas.
Response: First, there are two directional lands mentioned in the record: 1) “Land Northward and Land Southward; 2) Land North and Land South. These are not synonymous terms, but describe two entirely different sets of land. In the Land Northward and the Land Southward, the division is the narrow neck of land (Alma 22:27-34). The second set is a division of the Land Southward into two parts, the Land North and the Land South, with the dividing line the narrow strip of wilderness. Thus, when Lehi landed, he did so in the Land South, and when Mulek landed, he did so in the Land North (Helaman 6:10). We know this because when Mosiah discovered Zarahemla, he found that he did so in the land where they landed and had always been there until Mosiah discovered them (Omni 1:16).
    Second, poisonous serpents are mentioned only three times in the scriptural record. The first is when they “came forth” after a great dearth (famine) and chased many Jaredite animals into the Land Southward before “hedging” up the way to keep any people from going into the Land Southward (Ether 9:31-33).
    The second is during the time of Lib in which the serpents were destroyed (Ether 10:19).   In both these cases they were in the Land Northward, not the Land Southward.
    The third instance is mentioned also by Moroni as he finished the record of his father (Mormon 8:1), he spoke about “those saints who have gone before me” (Mormon 8:24), that in the name of Christ they “could cause the earth to shake, cause prisons to tumble to the earth, could not be harmed by the fiery furnace, neither wild beasts nor poisonous serpents, because of the power of his word” (Mormon 8:24).
    Thus we can conclude that the Land Northward was full of poisonous serpents, at least around the time of the great famine, but that they were either unknown in the Land Southward, or at least not mentioned in connection with the Land Southward directly.
Comment #4: “Whether guards were posted or whether a wall was built along the defensive line, the results would be the same. The motive was to keep the Lamanites from traveling into the land of Zarahemla or into the land northward” Benji K.

Top: Field without a wall and guarded only by men scattered across the top; Bottom: The same field with a high wall built across the way. Obvious, one is far more secure than the other showing it would make a difference

Response: While it may seem that way, actually there is quite a difference. Guards can be killed and eliminated from being a deterrent, however, a wall, if sturdy and tall enough, would remain a deterrent for a very long time. Since Mormon tells us that Moroni “had been strengthening the armies of the Nephites, and erecting small forts, or places of resort; throwing up banks of earth round about to enclose his armies, and also building walls of stone to encircle them about, round about their cities and the borders of their lands; yea, all round about the land” (Alma 48:8; emphasis added), it sounds like a stone wall was built, which would have been far superior to a posting of guards.
Comment #5: “In your book of Mormon, in Alma 5:27, we are told that people capable of having themselves cleansed by the blood of Christ 100 years before that blood was shed for the remission of sins (compare Heb. 9:22). Just how is such possible, or is this another gaff in the early publishing?” Jerome L.
Response: The Atonement of Jesus Christ to those who lived before the meridian of time was a future event, and the children of God lived in anticipation of that who knew and understood the high law of the Hebrew religion. For those who lived after Christ, it was a past understanding. Either way, all men will be granted their cleansing according to the time and decision of the Lord, He who grants this grace to us.
    By the way, speaking in future tense is found through the Old Testament when ancient prophets spoke of the visions and understanding they were given. Samuel the Lamanite in Helaman was told by the Lord to speak of things that had not yet happened, of things he had never seen, but knew only because the Lord gave him the understanding.
    Perhaps those who continually look for errors of what the Book of Mormon says in their minds might want to read and give good thought to Isaiah 29:16: “You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding?"
Comment #6: “It seems unlikely to me that the Lord, knowing what he is going to do, would not leave us some insight of your book of Mormon in his messages in the Bible” Jed S.

Response: Well, let see. How about Isaiah, one of the most influential and best known prophets of the Old Testament, who prophesied of the Book of Mormon in rather specific terms, “And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust” (Isaiah 29:4)…”And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned” (Isaiah 29:11-12)… “Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid” (Isaiah 29:14)…They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine” (Isaiah 29:24).
Comment #7: “Since all the geography presented for the Nephites was given by Mormon more than 300 years afterward, I don’t think we have to worry too much about supposed great changes in the map. While much destruction may have taken place on the ground, I speculate that satellite pictures take before and after that destruction (had it been possible) would have shown only minor changes in the courses of rivers and in the shape of the coastline” Bart T.
Response: Well, let’s see. Samuel tells us that mountains collapsed and became level valleys, and Nephi says those mountains crumbled into pieces. That alone would have changed the course of numerous rivers since the mountains that spawned them were no longer there. Samuel also tells us that mountains would form where valleys have once been, and those mountains would be so high that he described their peaks as “whose height is great.” That would have created rivers where rivers had not been before and from very high mountains, those rivers would likely have been moving in several different directions.
    We are also told that seams and cracks would appear throughout the land, solid rocks beneath the surface would be split up in numerous segments, that holes opened up and several cities dropped into the earth, covered over by the earth and even high mountains. We know of one city along the east seacoast that fell into the sea and was covered by the water, suggesting a change in that coastline.
    Sounds rather serious!

More Comments from Readers – Part II

Here are more comments that we have received from readers of this website blog:
Comment #1: “I have noticed how contrary to popular assumption the Mormon doctrine of Native Americans being Israelites isn’t about the “Lost Tribes” at all. In fact, I've noticed a high tendency for Mormons to believe in British Israelism. Then of course Joseph's Smith's claim that he descended form Jesus further complicates things. How does a Mormon apologist genealogically back that up” Jared M.

The Lost Ten Tribes were distributed throughout the Middle East and Europe, not the Americas

Response: First, the Book of Mormon is not about, and has never been purported to be about, the Lost Ten Tribes. It is about one extended family being led away from Jerusalem by the Hand of the Lord prior to the fall of the city under Zedekiah.
    Secondly, and frankly, having been a member of the Church for over 65 years, being heavily read in LDS works, and involved in numerous positions and discussions, I have never heard of the Church favoring a view of British or Anglo-Israelism. On the other hand, most members would say they believe that the Lost Ten tribes moved northward and westward into East and West Europe, etc., on their trek or movement away from Babylon, and that a large amount of the House of Israel is scattered through that pathway northward—our past and current missionary work is dedicated, in part, to that end.
    Elder David F. Evans, the Executive Director of the LDS Missionary Department as reported in the Deseret News on Wednesday, July 2, 2014, said that the number of missionaries will reach 88,000, of which 85,593 are currently serving, but will probably soon settle around the high 70,000s.
    Third, Joseph Smith never suggested he was a descendant of Jesus Christ. He, as do all LDS, accept the knowledge that we are all spiritual children of our Heavenly Father, including Jesus (the only begotten in the flesh), which, by definition makes him our Older Brother in the Family of God.
    All of this information is quite easy to obtain from hundreds of printed sources available to anyone. It is surprising when someone seems so ill-informed on a subject they choose to criticize.
    Fourth, regarding the website you listed and your response to “Native Americans being Israelites,” in which you start out: “There is a tendency for the claims of the Book of Mormon to come up any time theories about Israelites coming to the Americas in any form are discussed.” It seems humorous that you make an issue out of an LDS person making fun of someone who was making light of an LDS view so deeply ingrained in the LDS conscious (Book of Mormon). Evidently, it is all right to make fun of Mormons but not for Mormons to reply.

Top: Ancient ruins in Sayacmarca, Peru; Bottom: Mexico (Mesoamerica)

However, the point of your comment is the LDS claim, as found in the Book of Mormon, regarding the origin of the so-called Native Americas, i.e., specifically who built the fantastic civilizations found in Meso- Central and western South America.
    At least the LDS claim has a complete record about them, where they came from, how they got here, and what became of them. A far superior approach than bringing natives of antiquity across a so-called Siberian Land Bridge that then infiltrated the Americas clear to Tierra del Fuego for no credible reason. At least the LDS approach gives full credit to God, the creator of all things, whose Plan for His children included the settlement of the Western Hemisphere and a partial record of their existence, belief and trust in God, and a Second Witness of Jesus Christ.
    It might also be added, that when you write: “America Unearthed is popular in Mormon circles because it seems to provide support for Mormon claims for Jewish colonization of America before Columbus,” you might want to read the Book of Mormon before you comment about it. If you were to, you would find out that Lehi was of the Tribes of Menasseh, not Judah; and Ishmael was of the Tribe of Ephraim, not Judah, and the earlier Jaredite settlement were a people long before Israel’s time and the creation of the 12 tribes. Only Mulek was of the Tribe of Judah, a small inclusion of people who were folded into the lineage of Nephi (Manasseh and Ephraim from his mother—the twin sons of Joseph). The settlement of America, as shown in the Book of Mormon, was by the House of Israel, not by the Jews.
Comment #2: “According to Jewish legend Abraham invented the Hebrew Alphabet” Michael P.
Response: The Bible suggests that Hebrew (Canaanite) was first written after the time of Joseph (great-grandson of Abraham), but before the time of Moses. The Hebrew verb katab (write), which occurs 262 times in the Old Testament never occurs in the book of Genesis; its first occurrence is Exodus 17:14, should be translated as “scroll.” It does not say “write this for a memorial in a book.” Again, megillah (scroll, roll, book, writing) occurs 22 times beginning in Psalm 40:7 with King David, but does not appear in Genesis.

Proto-Sinaitic alphabet

This agrees with archaeological and other external evidences, which suggest that the first writing of any Northwest Semitic language (which includes Hebrew and Canaanite as well as Aramaic) and the first real alphabet anywhere in the world, was the Proto-Sinaitic alphabet used to write various inscriptions in the Sinai Desert starting around 1850 B.C.
    Still, according to one Jewish tradition, the block script seen today in Hebrew Torah Scrolls, known as Kthav Ashurith (Assyria alphabet), a traditional calligraphic form of the Aramaic alphabet, and first used in certain Jewish ceremonies, was the original Hebrew script carved into the Ten Commandments. On the other hand, there is a famous saying, from the Zohar Chadash (Splendor or Radiance—the foundational work in the literature of Jewish mystical thought known as Kabbalah), on Song of Songs that there are 600,000 letters in the Torah.

    These letters correspond to the 600,000 Jewish souls that exist, according to the 1637 “Jewish mystical text” Megaleh ‘Amukot, a widely circulated and influential text, by Rabbi Nathan Nata Spira (Shapira), a preacher and famous kabbalist (system of Jewish theosophy, mysticism, and thaumaturgy marked by a belief in creation through emanation and a cipher method of interpreting Scripture), after composing Megaleh ‘Amukot, which was published posthumously in 1637, in which he interpreted the prayer of Moses in the weekly Torah portion “Va-Ethanan” (Deuteronomy 3:23-25) in 252 different ways, some of which were based on numerology (gimatriyah) or complex mathematical calculations and others on kabbalistic interpretations from various traditions. However, the Torah only has about 304,805 letters, and Spira’s statement is puzzling and does not seem to describe any known or possible variant of the Torah.

Sample of the Ashuri alphabet written according to the Askhenaz scribal custom on parchment (kiaf) 

The resolution of this issue, like that of so many legends or myths associated with ancient Jewish writings, is that it is recorded in kabbalistic books and characteristic of this genre, the statement is referring to mystical issues and not the simple letters of the Torah. Some claim that it refers to the strokes a scribe requires to write the letters while others suggest that it refers to both the written and unwritten portions of a scroll. Whatever the saying means, we can be certain that it does not mean that there are literally 600,000 letters in the Torah.
    The same might be said regarding Moses inventing the Hebrew alphabet. According to scholars, the original Hebrew script developed along side others in the region (Cannan and Arabia) during the course of the late second and first millennia B.C. Not only is it closely related t the Phoenician script, but that this gave rise to the use of alphetic writing of Greek
    It is also claimed that around the 10^th century B.C., a distinct Hebrew variant, the original “Hebrew script,” emerged, which was widely used in the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah until they fell in the 8^th and 6^th centuries B.C. However, other scripts, such as the Moabites and Ammonites were also involved. After the exile, the Jews gradually stopped using the Hebrew script, adopting the “square” Aramaic script, which evolved into the “square” Jewish script still used today. Eventually, the numerous closely related scripts in use all over the Middle East for several hundred years gave way to Latin and Arabic scripts after the rise of Christianity and later Islam).

More Comments from Readers – Part I

Here are more comments that we have received from readers of this website blog:
Comment #1: “I appreciate that the Book of Mormon does not directly mention other people in the land of promise. However, consider Mosiah 25:2 (120 BC): 2 Now there were not so many of the children of Nephi, or so many of those who were descendants of Nephi, as there were of the people of Zarahemla, who was a descendant of Mulek, and those who came with him into the wilderness. 3 And there were not so many of the people of Nephi and of the people of Zarahemla as there were of the Lamanites; yea, they were not half so numerous. Why would there be so many more Lamanites than Nephites 580 years after they separated in about equal numbers? The Mulekites were called Nephites in the BoM because they united with them. All those that united with the Lamanites were called Lamanites. If Laman and Lemuel and those who remained with him married into tribes that existed in the New World, they would eventually all be called Lamanites” Blogger.

Nephi took all those who would go with him and traveled north to eventually found the City of Nephi

Response: We need to keep in mind that when these two groups (Nephites and Lamanite) split, they did not go their separate ways. Besides, we do not know they started out with abut the same number, since when the scripture says Ishmael and all his household came with Nephi we don’t know who all the household involved, like servants, slaves, extended family, etc., which was quite common at that time. In any event, these two groups did not evolve the same—the Nephites twice left their homeland and we do not know how many were left behind or what happened to them in both cases, i.e., when Nephi left their Land of First Inheritance, and when Mosiah left the city of Nephi. In this second instance, after some 350 years in that area, the Nephites would have grown to a very large number, but those who went with Mosiah were obviously not large, since they were only about half the number of those at Zarahemla they encountered.
    Since the Lamanites took over the cities of the Nephites in the Land of Nephi (Nephi, Shemlon, Shilom, etc.), we can assume that those Nephites left behind that were not killed defected over to the Lamanites, since they were already so evil that the Lord wanted Mosiah to separate from them. We also know of instances where numbers of Nephites, even subgroups defected over to and joined with the Lamanites. Why would you not think the Lamanites would be much larger. The instance of Mosiah alone should suggest that to us. Besides aggressive cultures, who need warriors and hunters for the tribe and warring tend to have larger families than city people who live more sedate lives.
Comment #2: “Just a note to let you know I appreciate how you tie everything into scriptures regarding the Nephite geography of the Book of Mormon. When I read other blogs on the subject, it is only about someone's opinion, and when I read a webpage devoted to the Book of Mormon and Land of Promise, etc., it is still little more than someone's opinion. Few use any references at all, and most neglect to show why their opinion is accurate. Your site, on the other hand, is full of references, as are your books, and full of scriptures to back up your points, again, as are your books. I have learned a lot since I started visiting here. Thanks again” Paul.

Response: If the scriptural record is not the basis of a geography for the Book of Mormon, then what is the point? And if a geographic model does not meet and answer all the questions posed by the scripture, then, again, what is the point of the model? It seems a simple equation—when both come together correctly, with the scriptural record the predominant factor, then the model is at least feasible.
Comment #3: “Wind routes are a poor excuse for where Lehi's boat went. Nusbaum repeatedly stressed the following factors to refute those using such criteria: BofM lands were "hidden" not on normal wind routes and required the Liahona to reach them. BofM lands were not adjacent to the "Great Deep" that they crossed; it was never referred to again as being one of the bordering bodies of water” Holly.
Response: We need to keep in mind that a ship “driven forth before the wind” was totally reliant on wind and sea routes and could not have moved upon the water in any other path. You seem to think that a ship in 600 B.C. that Nephi tells us was pushed forward by wind, was dependent upon sea and wind routes and would have been becalmed (unmoving) on the sea trying to go in any other direction. 
    A thousand years after Lehi, ships at sea were still dependent upon wind and sea currents, and not until the steam engine and then diesel engines could ships go anywhere they chose on the waters, though sea currents have always been important, even today. As for the term Great Deep, you might want to know what that expression means. It comes in Hebrew from the word Tehom, meaning the Great Deep of the primordial waters, also found in Akkadian (tamtu) and Ugaritic (t-h-m) and Sumerian (Tiamat). In more modern terms, the Great Deep is the “deep ocean” or “deep layer,” i.e., the deepest parts of the ocean, the lowest layer in the ocean, that part that Pliny the Elder wrote about, meaning deep water or the deep oceans of the world where the Great Deep is located. Obviously, these areas are well away from shore and the underlying continental shelf. 
    Thus, there would be no association with the seas around the Land of Promise and the Great Deep. In today’s vernacular, mariners call it the “deep sea,” “the deep blue,” “blue water,” etc. And if you are going to use Helaman 3:8, you need to use the entire statement (there were no verses and sentences in the original writing), but this statement is in just one sentence: “And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east” (Helaman 3:8, emphasis added). It cannot be said that this writing had to do with only the Land Northward.
Comment #4: “Comments: #1: “What do you make of Hugh Nibley’s insistence that Jaredites survived their final battle and lived elsewhere on the continent outside the influence of the Nephites?” Harlo C.

Response: Hugh Nibley (left) is one of the great scriptorians of the past, and fluent in numerous languages. However, like Sorenson and other Mesoamerianists, it is logical for them to include other people in the Land of Promise since ancient civil records of the area claim so many others lived in the area, such as the Toltecs, Olmecs, Zapotecs, etc.
    In addition, when discussing the brief historical background of the Mulekites, Nibley wrote: “That shows us how closely the editors of the book of Moron stick to the business at hand, shunning any kind of digression and stubbornly refusing to tell about any people but the announced subjects of their history.” And that they give “but the brief and grudging nod to their [Mulekites] past is a priceless clue for us,” when discussing what little is listed about the people of Zarahemla once encountered.
    For some reason Nibley thought that Amaleki should have written a history of the Mulekites once they were encountered, however, what he fails to mention is that the Mulekites did not have a written history of any kind, did not keep records, were illiterate and therefore had nothing to tell of their history other than their recent interactions which were stored, to whatever degree, in people’s memories—not the best of sources for information.
    Why he thinks the prophets of the time were “stubbornly refusing” to write more is hard to imagine. We know nothing of what the record included, but do know that its abridgement and translation were directed by the Lord, and even Mormon tells us from time to time he was restricted from saying more about a subject when he was abridging the record.
Comment #5: “1) To clarify, are you saying that the entire Andes mountain range (and the country of Brazil) rose out of the water in three hours? (3 Nephi 8:19) At most there was only three days of changes to the land before the earth did cease to tremble, and the rocks did cease to rend (3 Nephi 10:9) No other changes to the land were significant enough to report, so I'm assuming that's what you are saying” Tyrus C.

The flat Amazon Basin that was raised up during the Andes uplift, which occurred at the time of the crucifixion

Response: When a tectonic plate subducts under another tectonic plate, the earth’s surface changes dramatically. In most cases, this is merely a long-term event and those changes occur so slowly, other than an initial earthquake, tsunami, etc., which hits suddenly, sometimes catastrophically, but always in a few hours or a day or two and its gone and the aftermath forgotten (except by those hit by it all and the record keepers);  however, when the Lord’s hand is involved (“darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days” Helaman 14:27) then the time frame is very quick by comparison (earth was divided in the days of Peleg) and the events can be quite noticeable (mountains rising from valleys “whose height is great” Helaman 14:23).
    Those mountains went up quickly, suddenly, and very noticeably, otherwise, the Lord’s prophecy through Samuel the Lamanite would be meaningless (“these wonders should come to pass upon all the face of this land, to the intent that there should be no cause for unbelief among the children of men—and this to the intent that whosoever will believe might be saved, and that whosoever will not believe, a righteous judgment might come upon them” Helaman 14:28-29).
    That can hardly describe an event that took several lifetimes to complete.

Lehi’s Landing Site

While Jacob speaks of the Nephites being on an isle of the sea (2 Nephi 10:20), and Mormon saying that Lehi landed along the West Sea in the south of the Land of Nephi (Alma 22:28), it is amazing that so many theorists completely ignore such clear and concise scriptural description and willfully claim and express their own erroneous opinions about where Lehi landed in order to justify their own ideas of where the Land of Promise was located.
    Mormon was not ambiguous nor concealing information of this landing when he openly stated: “and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers' first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore” (Alma 22:28, emphasis added).
    Despite this authoritative and dependable statement, Heartland enthusiast and North America theorist Jonathan Neville, states in a lengthy article entitled “Why Apalachicola, Florida, is plausible for the land of Lehi’s landing,” then gives the reference (1 Nephi 18:23-25), which has nothing to do with location but of what Nephi found on the land initially seen and settled. Interesting that he ignores the more defining statement in Alma 22:28.

Jonathan Neville states that Lehi landed at Apalachicola along the south coast of the Florida panhandle

Now, Apalachicola is a small area on the point of land that juts out into the Gulf of Mexico, along the Apalachicola River, which flows into the Gulf. In his article, Neville states that: “Archaeology, Bees, Honey, Climate, Latitude, Wind Currents, Promised Land (USA), Abundance of Food, Scripture Text, Seeds, No large number of indigenous peoples, and ‘It Just Makes Sense.’”
     It certainly would not have made sense to Mormon.

Traveling north by river 385 miles to Chattanooga, Tennessee, where it is claimed Nephi founded the city of Nephi

In addition, Neville states: “The Lehi Landing or the Land of First Inheritance was possibly near Tallahassee Florida. Nephi could then travel up the Chattahoochee River to its source at Unicoi Gap, Georgia. The source of the Hiwassee River could then take the Nephites where the first temple may have been built in Chattanooga, Tennessee.”
    First of all, Tallahassee is 22 miles from the Gulf (south), 168 miles to the Atlantic Ocean (east), and with no sea to the west until the Pacific Ocean (2200 miles away). Consequently, how could Tallahassee be the Land of First Inheritance since it is not located anywhere near a seashore.
    In another misuse of scriptural description, Neville states: “The Land in Tennessee is higher in elevation than Zarahemla (Montrose, Iowa) and that is why in the scriptures you will always hear of Nephites traveling “up to” the Land of Nephi and “down to” Zarahemla, as it is a reference to elevation not direction.

City of Nephi to the City of Zarahemla

In order to make this journey, the distance is 625 miles from Chattanooga, Tennessee (claimed City of Nephi) to Montrose, Iowa, (claimed City of Zarahemla), with Chattanooga being at 676-feet, with Montrose, Iowa, at an elevation of 531-feet, or a difference of 135 feet, which is about the height of a 13-story building. Now, extrapolating this height difference over the 625 miles horizontal distance, we are talking about 4.75 feet drop per one mile traveled. For comparison, that is about one half the incline of that which separates Salt Lake City from Provo.
     Hardly something that would be singled out when such a difference would be hard to detect at all.
    On the other hand, the distance between Salt Lake City and Park City, is 92.4 feet per mile. Now that is an elevation difference that would be recognized.
    Another example would be that between Cuzco (city of Nephi) and Pachacamac (city of Zarahemla) is 10.6 feet per mile. Thus, we can see that the idea of someone traveling from Chattanooga, Tennessee, to Montrose, Iowa, would hardly be described as “going up to” or “going down to,” etc.
    The original people who settled the Apalachicolan area, lived in wigwams, or cabins built of bark which are made round, like an oven, to prevent any damage by hard gales of wind. They make the fire in the middle of the house and have a hole at the top of the roof right above the fire, to let out the smoke. These dwellings are as hot as stoves, where the Indians sleep and sweat all night (John R. Swanton, The Indians of the Southeastern United States, Bulletin 137, Bureau of American Ethnology, Government Printing Office, Smithsonian Institution, 1946

Chattanooga, Tennessee, a flat land on limestone, sandstone, and shales on a parallel line with older rocks along a level, flat plain. Lookout Mountain can be seen in the distance

Chattanooga rests on a peneplain that is notable for its extent and degree of perfection on a more or less level land surface produced by erosion over a long period, undisturbed by crustal movement. The onlap of this area of successively wedge-shaped younger rock strata extending progressively further across an erosion surface cut in older rocks. It is generally associated with a marine transgression in which the younger beds overlap onto successively older beds along a flat plain, which was reduced anciently to an almost featureless plain barely above sea level (John B. Reeside, Jr. and William A. Cobban, Studies of the Mowry Shale Contemporary Formations in the U.S., United States Department of the Interior, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington FC, 1960, pp12-13).

    Long before the Cherokee and Creek Indians or early settlers inhabited the Chattanooga area along the bend of the Tennessee River, it was home to an ancient people, called the Mound builders. Since destroyed, at least four distinct mounds filled the valley which now is home to the city of Chattanooga.

Both the city of Chattanooga and all the surrounding land around it for miles and miles, is part of the flat Cumberland Plateau 

The ridge to the southwest of the city called Lookout mountain is at 1850 feet elevation, but only 1174 feet above Chattanooga—the highest point in the area is High Point in Georgia at 2392 feet and 1582 feet above the surrounding land. It should be noted that none of these “high” points are in Chattanooga or between it and Montrose, Iowa. As for the city itderlf, it is on a flat plateau running north, west and south.
    Thus, there is no chance one could “go up” to Chattanooga from Montrose (claimed City of Nephi to Zarahemla). In fact the name Lookout Mountain was given this ridge because one can see from the Rock City Point (Point Lookout) into seven states over the extremely flat ground of the Cumberland plateau that surrounds the city (Tennessee, Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina,s South Carolina, Georgia and Alabama).
    Archaeologists have found no evidence that anyone no one anciently had ever lived on or occupied this ridge, and the rest of the area is flat lands, having no place where Ammon could  have come upon a hill and looked down on the Land of Shilom and the City of Nephi.

Development Along the Southern Coast of Peru

Recent archaeological discoveries on the south coast of Peru show that the Chincha and their earlier cultures constructed a complex set of geoglyphs to mark ceremonial and residential sites. Paracas and Chincha societies in this region built artificial landscape in an open desert to mediate periodic social events. Several of these architectural features were oriented to the sunset during the winter solstice.
    These data provide insight into the ways by which people in stateless societies organized their social, economic, and political life. Social units, labor, and astronomically significant periods mesh, attracting participants to cyclical events in the mid-valley zone.
    In fact, there turned out to be a complex landscape by constructing linear geoglyphs that converge on key settlements; with solstice marking one factor underlying the logic of geoglyph and platform construction and use in the Chincha Valley during the Paracas period (Charles Stanish, et. al, “A 2,300-year-old architectural and astronomical complex in the Chincha Valley, Peru,” PNAS, Washington DC, May 20, vol.111, no.20, 2014, pp7218-7223).
    Beginning at Lima and moving southward along the coast are a series of horizontal valleys, each cut ancient from rivers flowing down from the Andes to the coast. It is judged that there are 162 sites of interest, including the ancient Chincha sites at La Vuelta, Coyahuasi, Huancani, Minay, and Checas. The latter was a very large pueblo, its ancient ruins high up in the Andes where the condors fly and where the ravine narrows. There is also the succession of small district outposts in Quilmana, San Antonio, Flores, and Calango.”

Chincha settlements (in white) along the coast from Pisco to Lima

Huaca La Centinela was the main settlement of the Chincha (Chinchay or “ocelot”) Culture, who in turn descended from an unknown Pre-Chincha people, who are dated in the vally to around 800 BC, and likely descended from the Paracas Culture (Charles Stanish, et al, "A 2,300-year-old architectural and astronomical complex in the Chincha Valley, Peru," Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Vol. 111, No.20, published by U.S. National Academy of Sciences, Washington DC, 2014, p7218).
      These were the ancient forerunner of the later Curacazgo of Cuzco or first political development of the Inca culture that even later became the Inca Empire. The Chincha used plant, animal and marine resources thanks to the nutrient-rich and fish-plentiful Humboldt Current that was readily available just off the coast and were prosperous farmers, fishermen, artisans and merchants. Their culture developed in the wide and fertile valley that bears that name on the coast of Peru, 125 miles south from Lima. 
    Chincha established systems of architecture, agriculture and irrigation that came to dominate the whole valley. Their mummification of the dead was a high art, with the bodies wrapped in bright colored, highly decorated textiles which, thanks to the climate in the coastal desert sites have lasted over time and are excellent shape. Much of the jewelry and valuable artifacts buried with the dead have long since been looted, but the wealth can still be seen, and the imagery within the site shows much of the living conditions and areas of importance to the ancient culture.
    As for their architecture, at Le Centinela alone there are 11 well-defined pyramid structures and minor buildings with adobe walls decorated using the technique suited to the covering of relatively large areas called Champlevé, with a black and red on white geometric painting within the principal Inca building.
    In addition the Chincha merchants maintained trade routes by land with herds of camelids used as beasts of burden reaching the Collao area and Cuzco. Moreover, the Chincha learned seafaring skills; and new technologies such as raft construction with balsa logs, being the largest capable of carrying twenty people in addition to a large cargo, and the use of the sail, only known by some cultures of Ecuador and Peru in the Pre-Columbian era of the Americas; allowing the Chincha to have extensive maritime trade routes and thriving businesses.

The large pyramid at La Centinela

 

Of these structures, La Centinela was the biggest pyramid in the complex aqueológico, called "The Sentry" because of its stark rise over a relatively flat area and its 60-foot height which provides a wide horizon with view to the marine coast and the fields of cultivation of the surroundings.
    La Centinela was the capital of the Chincha kingdom. The archaeological site lies near the modern town of Chincha Baja and near the mouth of the Chincha valley. It consists of a group of impressive adobe compounds that were built during the period of the Chincha kingdom but continued to function until the period of the Inca domination centuries later.
    Surrounding Alto Chincha were numerous other Chincha settlements, with la Centinela one of the first archaeological sites in Peru to be investigated by archaeologists. The site covers more than 190 acres and consists of two large pyramids, La Centinela and Tambo de Mora, constructed of adobe and serving as the habitations of the leaders of the Chincha people. The surrounding residential area housed artisans of silver, textiles, wood, and ceramics, although, like most pre-Columbian monumental archaeological sites, the main purpose of La Centinela was probably ceremonial rather than residential or commercial.
    A network of roads radiated out from La Centinela, running in straight lines, as was the Andean custom, and are still visible. The roads extended east and south of la Centinela and led to outlying ceremonial centers and also facilitated the transportation of goods to the Paracas valley to the south and toward the highlands of the Andes which rise about 12 mi)les inland from La Centinela, which was probably part of a broader network of population centers and other kinds of sites in the Chincha valley. These were linked by a system of roads, one of which was later incorporated into the Inca network. The nearby sites of Tambo de Mora, near a Centinela, and La Cumbe, just south of Lima, were perhaps visualized as part of the same large complex during pre-Columbian times.
    According to an early Spanish chronicle, the population of Chincha consisted of 30,000 heads of households, among which were 12,000 agriculturalists, 10,000 fishermen, and 6,000 traders. The numbers suggest a total population of more than 100,000 people under Chincha control, likely in a larger area than the Chincha valley itself. The larger than normal number of fishermen and traders in the population illustrates the commercial nature of the Chincha state and the importance of the sea to their economy. The Chincha like the Chimor and some other Andean cultures used money for commerce.

The ancient construction of Calango using tapia stone and adobe bricks

Other sites, such as Calango to the north of La Centinela, was constructed of the coursed adobe known as tapia, and building walls of adobe bricks. The settlement contained a rectangular plaza and had the trapezoidal niches and doorways typical of Andean Peru. Alongside the buildings that appear to have served as a palace stood a pyramidal platform more reminiscent of earlier Chincha architecture even though it was constructed of adobe bricks and constituted a formal part of the compound of the dominant cities. Several of the compounds built of tapia had been modified with adobe bricks, in one case extensively, indicating later alteration of existing structures.
     Scholars suspect that these local compounds were related to Chincha social units and were the settings for important ceremonies and rituals, probably including initiation, marriage, and other rites of passage. Archaeological evidence of extensive manufacturing or other purely economic activities has not been found.
    Earlier research established the fact that Paracas materials were distributed throughout the Chinche Valley, located between the valleys of Cañete (on the north) and Nazca (on the south) in the rich valleys along the Peruvian coast. Ernst Middendorf, Max Uhl, and Kroeber were pioneers in archaeological studies in Chincha. Excavations were made on Paracas sites such as Huaca Alvarado, La Cumbe and Huaca Santa Rosa, all large monuments located in the lower valley. Surveys were done in th4e 1950s of Cerro del Gentil and later, in the 1980s, members of the Instituto Andino de Estudios Arqueológicos (INDEA), conducted an important research program in the valley (Charles Stnish, Architecture and urban planning of the Paracas period in the Chincha valley. Andean Archaeological Gazette vol.6, 1992, pp87–117).

Close up of the Chincha Valley

A number of monumental Late Paracas sites were located throughout the valley, characterized by stepped pyramidal platforms with sunken patios made with conical adobe bricks. Both the site of Cerro del Gentil and the cluster of sites known as El Mono (more properly referred to as Chococota) were investigated.
    It should be noted from all of this that between the time Nephi settled after escaping from his older brothers and the time Mosiah was led out of the City of Nephi to discover Zarahemla, almost 400 years had elapsed. In that time, the expanding Nephite nation would have grown considerably from a single settlement to scores of cities through the Land Southward.
    In 400 years, it would have been common for the Nephites to have spread to ever corner of the land controlled, an area clearly spelled out by Mormon in his insertion in Alma 22-27-34, and as Helaman later said, “They did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east” (Helaman 3:8).
    The development of ancient Andean South America certainly follows this pattern. Rather than development taking place in a general area, Peru was developed throughout the land over great distances, from earlier major cities to small, outlying settlements.