Mesoamerican Theorists, beginning with Hugh Nibley and then John L. Sorenson among others, have always claimed that there were other people in the Land of Promise with whom the Nephites intermingled. This is a major claim by these Theorists because it is necessary, they believe, to have other people since others existed in their Mesoamerica. Yet, this flies in the face of scripture. Lehi made it clear there were no others before them (other than the Jaredites), so to counter this, Hugh Nibley and others have claimed that the scriptures are incomplete, and that LDS people are naive when reading them to believe the scriptures are complete in any way regarding this issue.
However, we have Lehi, Ether, Moroni and Mormon to lay claim that there were no others in the Land of Promise when Lehi landed. This continent, the Western Hemisphere, Lehi was told would be kept from the knowledge of other people.
George Q. Cannon suggests that Lehi gave the true explanation of the reason why this continent should be concealed from the knowledge of other nations. “We see how it is today. This continent is so desirable that there is a steady stream of people flowing to it from all countries. They are filling up the land, and the Lamanites, who have occupied it under the promise of the Lord to their father Lehi, have been crowded back from both oceans until they have but small spots to live upon in the center of the land, and even these are coveted by the people of other nations who have come here.
“This would have been the result long, long ago had the world known of the existence of this continent; but the Lord concealed it, and guided those only to it whom He desired to occupy it, so that all His promises concerning it might be fulfilled. Lehi told his children, that if those whom the Lord should bring out of the land of Jerusalem should keep His commandments, they should not only prosper here, but they should be kept from all other nations and have the land to themselves; there should be none to molest them, nor to take the land away from them; but they should dwell safely for ever. It was the failure of the ancestors of the Indians, or Lamanites, to do this, that brought upon them and their children evils under which they at present suffer.
“Lehi, before his death, told them, by the spirit of prophecy, what their fate would be if they fell into unbelief and rejected the Lord. He said the Lord would bring other nations unto them, and He would give them power; they would take away from his descendants their lands, and they would be scattered and smitten. We have only to look around us to see how completely and exactly his predictions have been fulfilled. And as these predictions have come to pass, so will others also come to pass respecting the nations of the Gentiles that will occupy this land; they would not be permitted to utterly destroy the descendants of Nephi or the other children of Lehi; and if they, themselves, did not repent, and keep the commandments of the Lord, destruction would also fall upon them.”
It would appear from this and the scriptures themselves that the Land of Promise had been kept free of other people since the Flood (Ether 13:2), and only those led here by the hand of the Lord (which were the Jaredites, Nephites, and Mulekites) were to possess it until their unbelief, then other nations would be led here. How much clearer can it be? Lehi landed on an isle (2 Nephi 10:20) unoccupied by others, and no others are recorded as arriving in this land of promise until Columbus brought the Europeans, which was the vision given to Nephi before ever reaching the Land of Promise (1 Nephi 13:10-19).
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Just a note to let you know I appreciate how you tie everything into scriptures regarding the Nephite geography of the Book of Mormon. When I read other blogs on the subject, it is only about someone's opinion, and when I read a webpage devoted to the Book of Mormon and Land of Promise, etc., it is still little more than someone's opinion. Few use any references at all, and most neglect to show why their opinion is accurate. Your site, on the other hand, is full of references, as are your books, and full of scriptures to back up your points, again, as are your books. I have learned a lot since I started visiting here. Thanks again.
ReplyDeleteOne cannot read the Book of Mormon and see where any other people were involved. None are mentioned and none are even intimated. To try and make something out of nothing by placing people where they are not mentioned or suggested is a slap in the face to those prophets of old who wrote about their world. Shame on Hugh Nibley, John Sorenson, and all the others who claim otherwise.
ReplyDeletePaul: If scripture is not the basis of a geography for the Book of Mormon, then what is the point? And if a geographic model does not meet and answer ALL the questions posed by the scripture, then, again, what is the point?
ReplyDeleteI appreciate that the Book of Mormon does not directly mention other people in the land of promise.
ReplyDeleteHowever, consider Mosiah 25:2 (120 BC):
2 Now there were not so many of the children of Nephi, or so many of those who were descendants of Nephi, as there were of the people of Zarahemla, who was a descendant of Mulek, and those who came with him into the wilderness.
3 And there were not so many of the people of Nephi and of the people of Zarahemla as there were of the Lamanites; yea, they were not half so numerous.
Why would there be so many more Lamanites than Nephites 580 years after they separated in about equal numbers?
The Mulekites were called Nephites in the BoM because they united with them. All those that united with the Lamanites were called Lamanites.
If Laman and Lemuel and those who remained with him married into tribes that existed in the New World, they would eventually all be called Lamanites.
Nephi and the record keepers that succeeded him had a limited scope for their records.
It is believable to me that this detail of the Lamanites intermarrying with existing tribes could have remained unwritted in the abridged Book of Mormon as we have it.
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DeleteI agree with you Mr. Washington, and i think the premise can go further. When Nephi decides to leave his wicked brothers after the death of Lehi he mentions taking each righteous family member with him and their families and Zoram and his family. Then Nephi said he invited others to go with him, basically anyone who heard Nephi's preachings and believed them.
DeleteThis must have been a substantial amoumt of people (though fewer than those that stayed) because in the space of thirty years they built a city (at least one), a temple (after the manner of Solomon), raised flocks, farmed and had sufficient numbers to have an intimedating army to defend themselves against the incursions of the Lamanites. 2 Nephi ch.5
It would appear that there were more people than just the original members of the landing party and their families for so much to happen in so little time.
When Lehi and Nephi shared that the Lord had preserved the promised land by preventing it from being known by any other nation it is understandable to believe that the land was uninhabited when the Book of Mormon pilgrams arrived.
ReplyDeleteHowever, 2 Nephi 1 only mentions nations. So, yes, there were no other NATION knowing about the promised land, but that does not preclude previous, unorganized (or civilized) peoples already living there.
Also, we can use the Old Testament as a pattern of the Lord's chosen people inhabiting a promised land. Each time the Lord sends his people to a choice land, there have been people already in the area. With Abraham there was little conflict, keeping to himself, mostly. For Moses, the way was full of bloodshed and war. The Israelites returning from Babylonian captivity had a slightly easier time repatriating their land but was far from free of conflict. And modern-day Israelites after WWII faced/face many problems wth those already living in that land.
It seems to me that even the promised land in the west would have been previously peopled if for any other reason than to prepare the land for the coming of the promised inheritors, but also it fits the pattern of obtaining a promised land.
Tyson, perhaps you might want to search this blog for the several articles written about the actual numbers within the Lehi party to begin with, and the probable inclusion of both Lehi's and Ishmael's servants, "slaves" and workers on their farms--none of which would have been left behind. When this is taken into account, the numbers more than add up. No one else would be needed, and indeed, no one else is ever mentioned.
ReplyDeleteTyson: Today’s dictionary defines “nation” as “a large body of people associated with a particular territory,” or “a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.”
ReplyDeleteEither way, we tend to see things in a grand scale today because of the 7.44 billion people that presently occupy this world. On the other hand, Webster’s 1828 dictionary definition was a little different: “A body of people inhabiting the same country, or united under the same sovereign or government; it often happens that many nations are subject to one government; in which case, the word nation usually denotes a body of people speaking the same language.” Note that the term “large” does not appear in Webster’s original meaning, suggesting a “nation” would be defined as any body of people forming one government, living in one body, etc. Hence, the Nephites were a Nation, while the Lamanites and Jaredites were a kingdom. This suggests, and is my opinion of the meaning of 2 Nephi 1, thus the Mulekites were a “nation” when Mosiah found them, and when they merged with the Nephites, became part of the Nephite Nation. The Lord is telling Lehi that no other nation, or such people, would be allowed to come to the Land of Promise unless he brought them, and if you note the language, such future coming of any “nation” or people is always in the future tense, never in the past tense.