Wednesday, March 9, 2016

Interesting Thoughts from a Reader and Our Responses – Part IV

Continuing from the previous three posts regarding further insights into the comments and responses regarding the Nephites and their activities. 
   Reader: “Mormon's father was a descendant of them also.”
   Response: Mormon tells us who he is, and that is not a Lamanite! He writes of himself: “And I, Mormon, being a descendant of Nephi, (and my father's name was Mormon)…” (Mormon 1:5).
Therefore, since Mormon was a descendant of Nephi, his father, Mormon, would also have been a descendant of Nephi, thus neither of them were part of or connected to the people of Ammon, who were originally Lamanites before their conversion, meaning they were descended through either Laman, Lemuel or the sons of Ishmael, depending on the context of Lamanite at the time.
    Reader: “…and he brought his son, Mormon, down to the land southward when he was 10…”
    Response: First, Mormon tell us he was “eleven years old, when I was carried by my father into the Land Southward, even to the land of Zarahemla” (Mormon 1:6).
    Reader: “…stopping in the Nephite settlements in Central America…”
    Response: We know nothing of any Nephite settlements in Central America in the scriptural record, and certainly since Mormon was in the Land Northward, which was connected to the Land Southward by a “small” and “narrow neck of land” (Alma 22:32; 63:5), which literally means small and narrow, i.e., far south of Central America in the Land of Promise.
    Reader: “…where he [Mormon] met Ammaron (who he later replaces as the Prophet) and then came to Zarahemla a year later.”
    Response: Ammaron was the prophet of the Nephite Nation and as such would have been either in Bountiful or most likely in Zarahemla, which was the Nephite capital both before the destruction (3 Nephi 1:2), and afterward when they rebuilt the city (4 Nephi 1:8).
    Evidently, the Lord knowing where the wars would take place and where Mormon would be when he was a certain age, had Ammaron hide the records in an area that would then be accessable to Mormon, so he told this ten year old, “when ye are about twenty and four years old I would that ye should remember the things that ye have observed concerning this people; and when ye are of that age go to the land Antum, unto a hill which shall be called Shim; and there have I deposited unto the Lord all the sacred engravings concerning this people. And behold, ye shall take the plates of Nephi unto yourself, and the remainder shall ye leave in the place where they are; and ye shall engrave on the plates of Nephi all the things that ye have observed concerning this people” (Mormon 1:3-4).
Mormon and the Nephite Army was fleeing as fast as they could in an attempt to keep ahead of the pursuing Lamanite forces
    Now, Mormon would have been 24 years old in 334 A.D., however, from 330 A.D. to 344 A.D., Mormon was embroiled in constant battles, and prior to this time Mormon was in the land of Joshua, near the West Sea (Mormon 2:6), at which time they were gathering in their people as they retreated, and “the land was filled with robbers and with Lamanites; and notwithstanding the great destruction which hung over my people, they did not repent of their evil doings; therefore there was blood and carnage spread throughout all the face of the land, both on the part of the Nephites and also on the part of the Lamanites; and it was one complete revolution throughout all the face of the land” (Mormon 2:8). A huge battle followed, no doubt over several days, in which 86,000 total combatants were involved (Mormon 2:9) and a fourteen year period follows in 7 or 8 verses of constant battles, and thousands upon thousands of Nephites dying and Mormon “saw that the day of grace was passed with them; both temporally and spiritually” (Mormon 2:15).
    All these events took place around the narrow neck of land, where the city of Joshua was located, westward of the land of David and southward of the land of Jashon, all cities where battles took place over this period. The point is, Mormon would have been so busily involved in fighting and fleeing with his Army that it is doubtful he would have had time for any records and, in fact, none are mentioned at this point.
    Not until Mormon and his beleaguered Army arrives in Jashon do we find that this area, just beyond the narrow neck of land, is near to where Ammaron hid the plates in the hill Shim. In this is should be noted that the Nephite army was fleeing for their lives from before the Lamanite hordes, and not even Mormon could bring his army to a stop until they reached Jashson (Mormon 2:16)—in the distances mentioned above in Central America, that would mean the Nephite Army was fleeing at a fast pace in retreat for about 865 miles non-stop. Such would not be possible and is beyond any consideration. That would also place the hill Cumorah more than 860 miles from the narrow neck of land—of coure, when one is theorizing one can always move the narrow neck.
The Darién Gap where Panama (Central America) attaches to Colombia of South America and is made up of jungle, marshland, swamp and dense mountain rainforest—even the Pan American highway, which runs for 19,000 miles could not be built through the Gap
    However the one thing we know between where Mormon was fighting and where the Reader places Jashon there is the area today called the Darién Gap, at least 50 miles wide running from sea to sea, and about 100 miles long that was, until the time of the crucifixion, submerged under water, and when it arose, it was such a tangle of jungle no one was ever been able to cross it on foot—the topography of this area would simply keep this land from being part of the Land of Promise as described by Mormon.
    Mormon states that he finally obtained the plates of Nephi which Ammaron commanded him to write upon in 345 A.D., when Mormon was about 35 years old (Mormon 2:17-18). The rest of these records were obtained from the hill Shim around 375 A.D., when Mormon would have been 65 years old (Mormon 4:23).
    Reader: “Young Mormon was taught by Ammaron and knew the record of the Nephites from that, and took the name of Captain Moroni to give to his own son later.”
When Mormon was ten, the prophet Ammaron approached him and told him about the sacred records hidden in the hill Shim and what he was to do with them when he got older
    Response: While this is possible, Mormon was only ten years old when he met Ammaron and only a few months before his father took him into the Land Southward. It might be questioned how much of the Nephite history Ammaron could have imparted unto him in that time, and whether or not the story of Moroni would have been covered then However, and far more likely, Mormon learned of Captain Moroni when he was 36 and obtained the records of Nephi. This is probably about the time that Mormon either married or had his children since Moroni was of a fighting age 30 to 35 years later when the final battle with the Lamanites occurred. It might also be added that Momron’s constant description of missing his son and hoping he was well and safe might be more reminiscent of a younger than older son.
The Mentinah Archives—records of the Nemenhah tribe, which starts with the Book of Hagoth and claims to tell his history and how he discoverefd and settled the laneds of north of the Colorado River
    Reader: “Samuel [the Lamanite] returned to his own land northward where he did preach to his people there and authored 2 of the books of the Mentinah Records.”
    Response: We have already mentioned the Mentinah Records, and since most of this Reader’s comments stem from that Record, it should be obvious how far from factual that writing is, not to mention it came into existence in the manner it did in Sanpete. And certainly cannot be used as a means to understand, study, or better know the scriptural record. The Mentinah website states: ”Furthermore, the Book of Mormon teaches that all of these groups will have the writings of the others (see 2 Nephi 29:13).
However, that scripture isolates records to just three groups: “And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.” Perhaps this group is claiming the Mentinah were part of the Lost Ten Tribes—if that were the case, their records would show the connection, as does the Book of Mormon, and as will the Lost Ten Tribes records when we see them—the Mentinah do not claim that, they claim to be a continuation through the Book of Mormon (Hagoth, Samuel the Lamanite, etc.)
(See the next post, “Interesting Thoughts from a Reader and Our Responses – Part V,” for more information on the comments and responses regarding the Nephites and their activities)


  1. Even if the Mentinah record is an authentic ancient record, that of itself does not prove in the least that what it says is the truth. Ancient records can be full of false things too. Since it contradicts the Book of Mormon again and again, there is no reason to trust it. This link tells about its promoter:

  2. Well put. Most members are unaware of all of the so-called ancient records people keep promoting that when analyzed are pure fiction.

  3. I hope we are almost done with this mentinah record nonsense.