Saturday, October 7, 2017

The Disservice of Manufacturing of Other People – Part II

Continuing from the previous post regarding the meaning of “destroy” and whether or not the destruction of the Jaredites was complete.
Despite such clarity as shown in the previous article, there are those who want to cloud the issue by claiming the Jaredites were not completely destroyed, that they intermingled with 1) the Mulekites, 2) the Nephites, and 3) with the Lamanites. Interestingly enough, Hugh Nibley also claimed that only once in the Book of Mormon do we read of a case of annihilation, when we are specifically told that “every living soul of the Ammonihahites was destroyed” (Alma 16:9). However, as stated earlier, Ether prophesied to Coriantumr that all his people would be destroyed save himself—and that his life would be spared so he could see someone else inherit the land. Of this, Nibley asks the question, “Every soul of what?” then answers his own question with, “Specifically of “his kingdom...and all his household.”
    However, if that was the case, that is, that other Jaredites were left to live in the land, how then is “seeing another people inherit the land” a meaningful punishment or pronouncement against Coriantumr since the so-called surviving Jaredites would already have possessed the land as their inheritance and still possessed it?
    No, the simple fact is, Ether stated in several places that “all the people” were involved in the final battle— after several million of Coriantumr’s people had already been destroyed (Ether 15:2), claiming that Coriantumr and Shiz, the two leaders of the split Jaredite kingdom at the time, spent four years gathering “all the people upon all the face of the land, who had not been slain, save it was Ether” (Ether 15:12,14, emphasis added).
    This seems pretty clear: 1) all the people, that is all the Jaredites; 2) who lived in all the land, that is, in all the Jaredite lands, 3) all the people who had not been killed, that is, all the living Jaredites; and 4) all except Ether, that is, Ether was not part of this final battle, but all the other Jaredites were, including Coriantumr and all his household. Look at the language used. “Save it were Ether.” One of the definitions of “save” is “except.” So it is meant, “All the Jaredites except for Ether.”
    This is  borne out in another verse when Moroni wrote: “And it came to pass that neither would the sons of Jared, even all save it were one; and Orihah was anointed to be king over the people” (Ether 6:27, emphasis added); and also in “and came to a place which was called Ablom, by the seashore, and there he pitched his tent, and also his sons and his daughters, and all his household, save it were Jared and his family” (Ether 9:3, emphasis added) also “And there began to be a war between Akish and the sons of Akish, which lasted for the space of many years, yea, unto the destruction of nearly all the people of the kingdom, yea, even all, save it were thirty souls, and they who fled with the house of Omer” (Ether 9:12, emphasis added).
    We see this also in “for Heth had perished by the famine, and all his household save it were Shez—wherefore, Shez began to build up again a broken people” (Ether 10:1, emphasis added); also “Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself”…
”And every soul should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr” (Ether 13:21, emphasis added); also “they had all fallen by the sword save it were fifty and two of the people of Coriantumr” (Ether 13:23, emphasis added); and also “that when they had all fallen by the sword, save it were Coriantumr and Shiz” (Ether 15:29, emphasis added).
    There can be no doubt, that in each of these cases, the “save it were” is very explicit and clearly means “except it were,” or that person was an exception to what was being said. Thus, when it says, “And it came to pass that they did gather together all the people upon all the face of the land, who had not been slain, save it was Ether” (Ether 15:12, emphasis added), it is meant that “all the people upon all the face of the land, save (except) it was Ether,” had been gathered in, i.e., all the people upon all the face of the land, except for Ether.”
    What is so complicated for theorists who want to place others in the land by claiming the Jaredites survived to understand the plain and clear language of the scriptural record?
    “All” means “every one,” “the whole quantity,” “the entire amount,” “wholly,” “completely,” “entirely,” “the whole number.” All the people in all the land, is about as clear as a writer can be.
    Thus, all the people except for Ether, i.e., all the people on all the face of the land—that is everyone—except Ether!
    There was no one left to survive this battle, for later on, we are told “when they had all fallen by the sword, save it were Coriantumr and Shiz,” we are being told all died except for two. What is so hard to understand? They gathered all the people on all the face of the land together in these two fighting armies (except for Either), and after days of battle, all had been killed but two! And then one killed the other—leaving just one! And he wandered about, finally ending up among the Mulekites, who, after nine months, buried him. And another people inherited the land!
    Wow! Is that Rocket Science?
    Yet, Hugh Nibley and many other theorists claim that not only was Ether spared, which the scriptures clearly state, but that other Jaredites and “other inhabitants of the continent—Nephites, Lamanites, and Mulekites that were actually living here at the time of the Jaredite destruction.” This is another fallacious argument since, even if the date of the Jaredite destruction did overlap the arrival of the Nephites and Mulekites, Coriantumr would not have known that, nor would Ether, who wrote the final chapters of Jaredite history, have known it at the time the prophesy was delivered.
The Jaredites never went south of the narrow neck of land, except to hunt, and these two lands were separate from one another until the Nephites moved into the Land Northward around 50 B.C. Thus, the Jaredites would not have known about the Mulekites nor the Nephites and Lamanites
It might also be of interest that earlier in his book, Nibley, when trying to compare the Jaredites with conquering tribes of western Asia, with the writings of Bar Hebraeus, the book of Taras Bulba, and the hordes of Mongols, Nibley makes the interesting statement: “The insane wars of the Jaredite chiefs ended in the complete annihilation of both sides, with the kings the last to go.”
    Isn’t that contradictory?
    This type of contradictory writing is often found in cases where an author is willing to use any argument to make his points—here we find that Nibley uses the “complete annihilation” side of the argument to make his point about the Jaredites being like the hordes of Asia where all are killed in battle except for the two surviving kings, then later, used the opposite argument of “Jaredite survivors” when he wants to claim not everyone was “annihilated.”
So what is the purpose of questioning what has been written? Are we too dumb to understand and need someone to guide us into understanding the plain, clear and simple writings of Mormon and Moroni?
(See the next post, “The Disservice of Manufacturing of Other People – Part II,” for more on the fictitious “other people” in the Land of Promise)


  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

  2. The Meso model works just fine. You just have to be willing to overlook a few things:
    * You have to create new people in the land- contrary to the Book of Mormon
    * You have to believe some of the Jaredites lived- contrary to the Book of Mormon
    * You have to change cardinal directions about 90 degrees
    * You have to create 4 internal maps that match the scriptures but then when you go to place it on an actual map, abandon your internal maps and turn them 90 degrees and add other lands, other seas, etc.
    * Have 2 East Seas- one to the (real) West of the Yucatan (north of the supposed narrow neck) and another one to the East of Yucatan.
    * Use the same body of water (Pacific Ocean) as both your West Sea and your South Sea
    * Have a day's travel of a Nephite be 100 miles to fit your narrow neck that isn't really narrow.
    * Have plenty of good land to the "south" of your model that Nephites or Lamanites could use, but never do. (El Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras)
    * Have easy access and plenty of land to the "North" of your model that Nephites could have escaped to but didn't. (Mexico)
    * Have plenty of land to the "South West" of your model that is ignored in the scriptures (Yucatan)
    * Ignore the scriptures that say the land of promise was an island
    * Identify the city of Nephi at ancient ruins that never were a walled city- contrary to the scriptures
    * Continually change your cardinal directions within your map to get city to city directions to match the Book of Mormon

    If you can just overlook those few little things, the model could work fine... then we could get into many more things that don't match scripture.

    By way of comparison, the only thing you have to get past with the South American model is that South America does not look today like it did prior to 33 AD. A legitimate reason to pause. Samuel prophesied that "valleys which shall become mountains, whose height is great" so any model should propose that this happened at 33 AD. Del recently posted 2 new posts providing a significant amount of scientific evidence that the Andes rose up recently and that most of South America was under water. Once you understand that, go ahead and dig deep and challenge the South American model- every single thing matches the scriptures without changing a word, adding people, or changing cardinal directions.

  3. The Book of Mormon is not going to go away. It is believed stronger and by more than ever before. We must question any attempt to overrule what is written in it by anyone.

    I thought this was good:

    Book of Mormon Evidences: Translation