Thursday, November 23, 2017

The City of Nephi – The Fortress of Sacsayhuamán – Part II

Continuing from the last post on the City of Nephi based on the scriptural account and the evidences today found at Sacsahuaman in Cuzco, Peru. 
    Most of these magnificent walls are found around Cuzco and the Urubamba River Valley in the Peruvian Andes. There are a few scattered examples elsewhere in the Andes, but almost nowhere else on Earth. Mostly, the structures are beyond our modern understanding—how did they carve and dress such large stones and then set them to fit so perfectly and without the need of mortar? How were such titanic blocks of stone brought to the top of the mountain from the quarries many miles away? How were they cut and fitted? How were they raised and put in place? Now, of course, no one knows, no one can even guess. The “how, why and what” simply baffle modern engineers—modern man can neither explain nor duplicate.
Some of the numerous cuts and angles that match so perfectly, without mortar, were set in place at Cuzco that still baffle stonemasons today

There are archaeologists, scientists and scholars, in trying to attribute this work to the Inca in a politically correct world, who would have us believe that the dense, hard andesite rock was cut, surfaced and faced by means of stone or bronze tools in the hands of the Inca. Such an explanation is so utterly preposterous that it is not even worthy of serious consideration. No one has ever found anywhere any stone tool or implement that would cut or chip the andesite, and no bronze ever made will make any impression upon it.
    Mysteries like this, of course, often bring out explanations that are both inventive and ridiculous, and certainly were not done by astronauts of another world as movies and “experts” claim. However, the answer, at least in part, is found before us, even in print within the scriptural record, that explains some of the mystery.
    This architectural complex is found along the edge of the northern slope of Cusco. The southern side of the structure was enclosed by a 1300-foot wall of polished stone. The east and west sides had additional walls and terraces used for cultivation. The front of the complex, which faces north, is protected by a formidable arrangement of three cultivation terraces encompassing zigzagging walls made of huge, carved and interlocking stones that, according to El Inca Garcilaso de la Vega, were constructed to demonstrate power.
Huge stones marked the bottom tier of the front entrance walls, providing an impressive and, to anyone visiting or seeing it for the first time in antiquity, a fearsome example of the power of those within the walls

First of all, there is little we know about the City of Nephi, other than Nephi and his people built it as he stated: “And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance” (2 Nephi 5:15). Now, as often as we have quoted that scripture in this blog, I wonder how many have taken the time to really understand what Nephi knew that he could teach his people that they didn’t already know.
    When we consider that Nephi, at best, was a farmer, living outside the city of Jerusalem all his days (1 Nephi 1:4) before heading into the wilderness with his family, where they would have had to have grown their own food, especially to have had “seeds of every kind” to have taken with them on the spur of the moment and head into the wilderness quickly and furtively to avoid detection by those who sought Lehi's life. Certainly they would not have gone into the city to buy huge stores of seed if they were trying to flee the area unknown—after all, Lehi was fleeing for his life (1 Nephi 2:1-2).
Lehi’s farm or residence outside the city walls of Jerusalem would have had to have been self-sustaining, where he and his sons would have known how to perform normal daily work and repairs, including farming, carpentry, metallurgy, herdsman and husbandry

As such, farmers completely on their own would have dabbled in numerous crafts to keep the residence, farmland and all its workings in good repair, such as woodworking, carpentry, working with various mediums, probably leatherwork and metallurgy, to make and repair tools needed on the farm, etc. They would have known directions, time of the equinox and solstices, and the time of the Pesach (Hag Aviv, or Spring Holiday), which marked the beginning of the barley harvest, with fifty days later the time to harvest the wheat (referred to as the “Counting of the Omer”), and the arrival of Shavuoth, along with Hag Hakatzir (Reaping Festival) and Hag Habikurim (Holiday of the First Fruits), as well as Succoth (Hag HaAsif, the Harvest Festival), which marked the final agricultural harvest which occurred in the beginning of the autumn.
    In a world where a small drought meant hunger, and a severe drought spelled famine, there was always great rejoicing during these times for good harvests and productive crops. In fact, in Lehi’s time, such planting and harvesting, where a good harvest bespoke survival for the winter, it is probably why one of the first things Nephi mentioned after reaching the Land of Promise was the planting of the seed they brought from Jerusalem, and its exceeding great harvest that provided them abundance (1 Nephi 18:24), and his repeating of this during the second harvest when they had reached the location of their final settlement (2 Nephi 5:11).
    Now we are not told much about this city they built. We know it had a magnificent temple, like Solomon’s (2 Nephi 5:16), and had a tall, costly tower next to it (Mosiah 11:12), from which one could stand on the top and look out over the Land of Shilom (Mosiah 11:12) and over the further Land of Shemlon (Mosiah 19:6) that Noah built. Obviously, this tower and temple were built up on a high hill, bluff or cliff of some type to afford it that kind of view, and the tower had to be quite tall and sturdy where a man could climb upon it and find some type of defense for himself, as when king Noah tried to flee from Gideon, who followed with sword in hand (Mosiah 19:5-6).
    Garcilaso, who grew up within the walls of the Fortress and Temple at Sacsahuaman, tells of its beauty and appointments, with “the wonderfully carved granite walls of the temple were covered with more than 700 sheets of pure gold, weighing around [4 ½ pounds] each; the spacious courtyard was filled with life-size sculptures of animals and a field of corn, all fashioned from pure gold; the floors of the temple were themselves covered in solid gold; and facing the rising sun was a massive golden image of the sun encrusted with emeralds and other precious stones.” Reports of the first Spanish who saw the temple told of “around the clock ceremonies conducted there,” and described its opulence, “fabulous beyond belief.”
    Also, when the Spanish entered the Valley of Cuzco, they saw in the distance on a collado (hill) overlooking the valley a tall tower at Sacsahuaman. That tower was eventually torn down by the conquerors, but where it stood remains the circular stone foundation complex, its size and complexity that would have supported a tower that is described in Mosiah. Situated next to the temple ruins and that of the fortress, it certainly fits the descriptions given of the tower Noah built.
    The architecturally advanced complex occupies the edge of the northern slope of the city of Cusco. The southern side of the building was enclosed by a polished wall of almost 1300-feet in length. The eastern and western borders of the temple were delimited by other walls and cultivation terraces.
(See the next post, The City of Nephi – The Fortress of Sacsayhuamán – Part III,”  for an understanding of who actually built these walls and fortress and how they managed to do so, defying known engineering techniques of today)


  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

  2. The sacsayhuama can not be the Nephites because the Nephites built earthen mounds around ALL their cities to fortify their cities not stone walls.
    Alma 50:1

    that they should commence in digging up heaps of earth round about all the cities, throughout all the land which was possessed by the Nephites.

  3. 7 Now it came to pass that while Amalickiah had thus been obtaining power by fraud and deceit, Moroni, on the other hand, had been preparing the minds of the people to be faithful unto the Lord their God.

    8 Yea, he had been strengthening the armies of the Nephites, and erecting small forts, or places of resort; throwing up banks of earth round about to enclose his armies, and also building WALLS OF STONE to encircle them about, round about their cities and the borders of their lands; yea, all round about the land. --Alma 48

    There were mounds of earth, yes, but there were also walls of stone. So the what area in the Americas has ancient DEFENSIVE walls of stone?

  4. David.. what was written in Alma 50 you must remember was about 72–67 B.C. The Nephites had been there for over 500 years now. So you really think that they just now started fortifying their cities? And you want me to believe that their idea for the first time in 500 years is to build mounds of dirt? Really? The way I understand the scripture is that they were adding to.. or fortifying their cities.

    "And now it came to pass
    that Moroni did not stop making preparations for war,
    or to defend his people against the Lamanites;
    for he caused that his armies
    should commence
    in the commencement of the twentieth year of the reign of the judges,
    that they should commence
    in digging up heaps of earth round about all the cities,
    throughout all the land
    which was possessed by the Nephites.

    2 And upon the top of these ridges of earth
    he caused that there should be timbers,
    yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man,
    round about the cities.

    3 And he caused that upon those works of timbers
    there should be a frame of pickets
    built upon the timbers round about;
    and they were strong and high.

    4 And he caused towers to be erected
    that overlooked those works of pickets,
    and he caused places of security to be built upon those towers,
    that the stones and the arrows of the Lamanites
    could not hurt them.

    5 And they were prepared
    that they could cast stones from the top thereof,
    according to their pleasure and their strength,
    and slay him who should attempt to approach
    near the walls of the city.

    6 Thus Moroni did prepare strongholds
    against the coming of their enemies,
    round about every city in all the land.

    Look at the time line in the different books:

    1 Nephi - 600 BC
    The end of 2 Nephi - About 559–545 B.C.
    The end of Jacob - About 544–421 B.C.
    Enos - About 420 B.C.
    Jarom - About 399–361 B.C.

    7 And it came to pass
    that they came many times against us,
    the Nephites, to battle.
    But our kings and our leaders
    were mighty men in the faith of the Lord;
    and they taught the people the ways of the Lord;
    wherefore, we withstood the Lamanites
    and swept them away out of our lands,
    and began to fortify our cities,
    or whatsoever place of our inheritance.

    8 And we multiplied exceedingly,
    and spread upon the face of the land,
    and became exceedingly rich in gold,
    and in silver,
    and in precious things,
    and in fine workmanship of wood,
    in buildings,
    and in machinery,
    and also in iron and copper,
    and brass and steel,
    making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground,
    and weapons of war—
    yea, the sharp pointed arrow,
    and the quiver,
    and the dart,
    and the javelin,
    and all preparations for war.

    9 And thus being prepared to meet the Lamanites,
    they did not prosper against us.

    Book of Omni

    Omni, Amaron, Chemish, Abinadom, and Amaleki, each in turn, keep the records—Mosiah discovers the people of Zarahemla, who came from Jerusalem in the days of Zedekiah—Mosiah is made king over them—The descendants of Mulek at Zarahemla had discovered Coriantumr, the last of the Jaredites—King Benjamin succeeds Mosiah—Men should offer their souls as an offering to Christ. About 323–130 B.C.

    Though the record in the Book of Omni says very little with only one Chapter.. it covers 193 years.

    Book of Mosiah goes from about 130 B.C. to about 92–91 B.C.

    Bood of Alma goes from About 91–88 B.C. to about 56–52 B.C.

    In Chapter 49 of Alma.. it states: The invading Lamanites are unable to take the fortified cities of Ammonihah and Noah... which was about 72 B.C. Then in Chapter 50.. which you quote.. seems like Mormon is fortifying already fortified cities that have been around for 400 - 500 years.

    1. Oh yea.. I almost forgot.. What do you think about Alma 48:8?

      8 Yea, he had been strengthening the armies of the Nephites,
      and erecting small forts,
      or places of resort;
      throwing up banks of earth round about
      to enclose his armies,
      and also building walls of stone
      to encircle them about,
      round about their cities
      and the borders of their lands;
      yea, all round about the land.

      So... where are the walls of stone in your Book of Mormon lands?

  5. The Nephites mention that they used earthen mounds with timber stockades and towers made from wood not stone. Wood was the building material of the Nephites not stone. Zarahemla and other Nephite cities were destroyed by fire. If the cities were built of stone that could not happen. Earthen mounds were built around all their cities.

  6. The earthen mound and timber stockade of the Nephites was very affective.

    but behold, in these attempts they were swept off by the stones and arrows which were thrown at them; and instead of filling up their ditches by pulling down the banks of earth, they were filled up in a measure with their dead and wounded bodies.

    1. Mckane

      The North American mounds were built for burying their dead not for a fortification. This proves that they weren't Israelite's because Israelite's don't bury their dead in mounds. It isn't in the bom record. Yes they piled up dirt around their cities but that isn't a mound as you are describing it. In fact, the word "mound" is not found in the BOM at all. Neither is the word timber stockade. The words stone and cement are used for which you have never been able to answer to any degree of satisfaction for the absence of those building materials in North America.

    2. The Hopewell mounds were built around their cities as the Book of Mormon states. Some walls were predicted to be 30 feet high with timber stockades

      Description of the Hopewell Pollock Stockade

      “It consists of a series of earthen embankments ranging from three to ten feet in height that partially enclose a large, 120-acre, plateau located along Massie Creek.
      “Robert Riordan, an archaeologist with Wright State University, has directed many seasons of excavations at the Pollock Works revealing a complicated site history. The works appear to have been constructed in five major stages beginning as early as AD 50. One of these stages involved the erection of a large, timber stockade along the top of the earthen embankments.”

    3. The problem with this is the Andes has a much higher civilization than the little mud huts you claim are where the Nephites lived. The Andes have the highest civilization on the continent of North and South America. I don't believe your low life, primitive civilation had anything to do with the Nephites at all. They weren't mud huts nor mound builders. Your model is insulting to anybody who understands the BOM. The Nephites were advanced builders. You can't even tell us who God brought to South America Thousands of years ago. This us the land of promise and only God brings people here. They in South America were the real Nephites. Not North Where a bunch of low life descendants lived.

    4. The lamanites and Nephites lived in tents and also buildings made of wood.

      The Hopewell did the same.

      Del has not shown any South American civilizations that lived in tents or wood buildings. Which of course is very problematic for Del.

      time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.

    5. Iterry FYI the North American Indians lived in tents as well as their ancestors the lamanites and Nephites.

      and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains;

      therefore they took their tents and their families and departed into the wilderness.

    6. Did you even bother to look at those photos of Cusco? Can't you see the high degree of culture they obtained? Where is that same culture in North America? The Nephites blessed by God lived in South America. Not in a bunch of mud mounds in North America.

      I'm sure since the last battles of the Nephites they were living in tents because THEY WERE ON THE RUN.

      The outer wall of the temple of Jerusalem was built of great stones like the ones in Cusco. When Jerusalem was conquered the wall was torn down until they got to one great stone that measured 40 feet long. They couldn't move it. Again this shows the high degree of technology and skill of the Israelites. You don't have any if that in North America.

      Give it up Mckane. Your model doesn't work. Any thinking person can see the great errors in the thing. You have made no progress here with your continual badgering.

    7. Another thing you obviously missed in the record. Alma 50:13 says they laid a FOUNDATION of a city. You don't lay a foundation for a tent McKane. You don't lay a foundation of a mud mound Mckane.

      In construction we talk about placing concrete. Concrete is not poured it's placed. Same here in the Alma. They were building real building where they lived in South America. They weren't a bunch of mud dwellers in North America. It's now been explained to you McKane the building of real cities. Where in North America are your real cities? There aren't any and that is why your lousy model is a joke.

      I've seen those pyramids along the Mississippi. They really aren't all that impressive. When I look at the walls in Cusco that have stood for thousands of years I marvel at the high degree of technology and skill the Nephites had reached in South America. It is absolutely breath taking to see the photos of those people. They truly were blessed by God. I can't say that for the Lamanite descendants who dwindled in unbelief in North America much later.

  7. When Garcilaso describes the temple, does his work clarify if he is describing a temple on the hill in Sacsayhuaman or if he is describing Coricancha?

    You and I have exchanged a couple emails about this in the past. While I don't know for sure, I still lean toward Coricancha being Nephi's temple.

    The way I am reading Mosiah 11 (and I may be wrong), I read vs 10 and 11 to indicate Nephi's temple had seats for the high priests and Noah put gold on them. Venice Priddis on page 71 of her book indicates that Garcilaso was describing Cuzco's Sun Temple when he "told of the beautiful temple garden which was entirely made of gold and silver..." (from Garcilaso, The Incas p 80 per Priddis) She then says it was this Sun Temple in Cusco that historians say had thrones covered in gold.

    I read vs 12 and 13 to indicate there was one "very high tower" near the temple (not next to it- if you believe there is a meaningful difference between the two words) and a second "great tower...built on the hill north of the land Shilom".

    On page 72 of Venice Priddis book, she claims that Garcilaso references a different tower than the one on the hill. "Garciolaso said: "The walls were babout twelce feet in height, but the roof was so high that the whole thing stood above all the towers I have ever seen in Spain, except the one in Seville" The inside height, from the ground to the top of the roof, was over sixty feet. This structuer was torn down while Garcilaso still lived". She references Garcilaso, The incas p. 353.

    I don't have access to Garcilaso's book, so I may be wrong. I don't know if from a 60 foot tower near Coricancha you could see the lands Shemlon and Shilom or not, but if not, I might be inclined to believe i am reading these scriptures incorrectly. But for now, it seems to me that Coricancha may be Nephi's temple and there was one tower near it and another tower on the hill north of Shilom (or on Sacsayhuaman in other words). Just my opinion.

    12 And it came to pass that he built a tower near the temple; yea, a very high tower, even so high that he could stand upon the top thereof and overlook the land of Shilom, and also the land of Shemlon, which was possessed by the Lamanites; and he could even look over all the land round about.

    13 And it came to pass that he caused many buildings to be built in the land Shilom; and he caused a great tower to be built on the hill north of the land Shilom, which had been a resort for the children of Nephi at the time they fled out of the land; and thus he did do with the riches which he obtained by the taxation of his people.

  8. David McKane:
    According to Noah Webster’s 1828 dictionary (of which Joseph Smith was familiar since he used it for the School of the Prophets), the word “foundation” means “The basis of an edifice; that part of a building which lies on the ground; usually a wall of stone which supports the edifice.” I spent an earlier part of my life as an architect, designing houses, apartment buildings, and business offices and complex centers, and I can tell you that when it comes to building, the word “foundation” has a very specific meaning, and is critical to constructing for the erection of any building of any size, weight, and durability. It certainly does not meet any standard of any type of simple hut, mud, adobe, or otherwise found in North America prior to the arrival of the Europeans. In fact, early houses in America were built on level ground, without foundations, and if uneven ground, stones were used at the corners to level off the weight-bearing floor beams. No foundations were ever laid. And, of course, as stated above, no foundations were ever used for tents, or basic and simple wood construction. Thus the use of “foundation of a city” can only have one meaning as used in Alma 50:13,14, and that has nothing to do with wood or tents.
    In addition, and you would know all this if you had been following all our posts, in which we have covered these subjects time and again, is that the Hebrews in Jerusalem (the area of construction known to Lehi and Nephi) was built entirely of stone. Begun in 750 B.C., the area of Judah was built of stone, cut from quarries in and around Jerusalem that can still be seen today. Solomon’s original palace walls have recently been discovered, which was built just to the south of the temple (1 Kings 6:38; 7:1) just outside and north of the original city, and included Solomon’s own palace (built 1004-991 B.C.) and a small house for his Egyptian wife, an armory called “the House of the Forest of Lebanon,” a Hall of Pillars, and a Hall of the Throne, and a special “Ascent” connected this complex with the temple (1 Kings: 7:1-11). These original walls just discovered were made of stone, and to make sure there is no question about stone being used, we find in (7:9) that all these structures, from the outside to the great courtyard and from foundation to eaves, were made of blocks of high-grade stone cut to size and smoothed on their inner and outer faces. (7-10) The foundations were laid with large stones of good quality, some measuring ten cubits and some eight. (7-11) Above were high-grade stones, cut to size, and cedar beams. (7:12) The great courtyard was surrounded by a wall of three courses of dressed stone and one course of trimmed cedar beams, as was the inner courtyard of the temple of the Lord with its portico.
    As you will notice, cedar beams or wood beams made from the cedars of Lebanon, were used liberally in the construction (7:2,7,11). In addition, some of the stones used were cut with a saw (7:9) and measured eight and even ten cubits (7:10), and they were costly (7:9,10, 11).

  9. continuing...
    There is also considerable mention of pillars, which are carved columns of marble, stone or concrete (modern day made of steel or iron), and are not made of wood; however, there is mention of beams, which are made of wood, and in Solomon’s construction, those wood beams were made of cedar (of Lebanon).
    To be more exact, ancient columns were carved and fitted together, using wooden dowels or metal pegs in the center of the stone drum (or column section) and were so made since they were remarkably resistant to seismic activity (earthquakes). In ancient Israel, the pillar (Hebrew עַמּוּד; from the root ʿmd, "to stand") were used in construction (rather than decoration) to support beams, such as for a roof (7:6). Pillars were sometimes made from one solid stone block, but generally from several stones placed one on top of the other. Sometimes, pillars were set up in the middle of a large area that could not be beamed from wall to wall, thereby shortening the distance between walls and making it possible to place short, strong beams between the pillar and the wall in order to build a roof over this area.
    The use of pillars in the construction of houses and other types of buildings was widespread in the Israelite period. Buildings from this period have been found that are divided internally into four sections: three long sections that lie side by side forming an almost perfect square, and a fourth section, of approximately the same size, running across their ends. The long rooms were sometimes divided from one another by solid walls, but generally by rows of pillars. It appears that of the long rooms, the middle one was uncovered, being a type of court lined on either side by rows of stone pillars. The roofs of the two outer rooms were supported by the outside walls and the two rows of pillars that surrounded the court. These structures were common.
    The point is, Nephi was well familiar with the construction of Jerusalem, and the stonework used there. He was so familiar with this stonework and construction, that he tells us that he built a temple like unto Solomon’s temple, which he must have known well. So the question arises, why on earth, with such knowledge of building out of stone, would Nephi teach his people how to build little wood huts of mud or sticks like the ones found in North America?
    Would a man who loved God build him a temple out of wood and compare it with the temple of Solomon?
    How little one who makes such a comparison knows about the character of Nephi, and the character of the Hebrews of whom Nephi would have been well acquainted.

  10. David: How little you seem to know about the use of wood in connection to stone construction. As we have evidence of when Solomon built his temple and palace, wood from Lebanon (cedar) was used liberally in the construction. In fact, we know that other types of wood was also used, such as pine, algum, and olive. In fact, when it comes to the temple, the outside walls were made of stone; however, the interior walls were made of cedar board covered with gold. Even inner stone walls were covered first with cedar panels, then with gold so no stone was seen inside the temple.
    In addition to the temple, Solomon built a royal palace in which he used cedar for the wood, that is, it was roofed with cedar and cedar columns and beams supported the roof. Solomon’s Hall of Justice was paneled in cedar from floor to ceiling. contracted with King Hiram of Tyre to supply the cedar and pine logs from the forests of Lebanon, and was transported by rafts from Lebanon to Joppa, the port for Jerusalem, where Solomon conveyed the wood from Joppa to Jerusalem.
    Cedar was used because it was constructed to last centuries, even millennia. Cedar is durable, free from knots, and easy to work.  The heart wood is a warm red and beautifully grained.  Cedars exude a gum or balsam which gives the tree an aromatic scent in which people take delight, but most insects dislike the smell and taste; consequently, they do not attack the tree. And since fungus is the most common cause of disease in plants—cedar is resistant to fungal disease so dry and wet rot rarely occur.  An expert botanist, Solomon knew the cedar’s characteristics and preferred them to trees more available to him in Israel, e.g., sycamore and box trees.
    The point is, ancient buildings, whether Solomon’s temple and palace, the normal houses and buildings of the Jews, or the castles of England and Europe, tough built of stone, also used wood liberally. Consequently, when set afire, the wood burned and often collapsed the roofs and most inner walls as the buildings burned to the ground. Thus, we see such remains still standing in parts of Europe of the outer walls, but the interior almost completely gutted.
    Thus, none of which we write here is “problematic” as you suggest.


    1. Del you are avoiding the argument. The Nephites not Solomon built their cities, buildings homes, synagogues out of timbers ie not stone. The Nephites never say they built their cities from stone. Nephi taught the Nephites in the use of wood. Not in the use of stone work. The Nephites in Zarahemla, Bountiful and cities south of the land Northward obviously had a plentiful supply of wood. So much so Zarahemla was destroyed by fire and many other Nephite cities. If the Nephites used stone as much as the sacsayhuama they would have said so (by the way Nephites in the land northward made homes of cement the sacsayhuama did not use cement) Nephite buildings were made from wood. Every Nephite city had a fortification of a earthen mound and wood palisade.

      You have yet to show sacsayhuama or any South American city for that matter with buildings of timber or a earthen mound fortification and timber palisade.

      My guess is there is absolutely no evidence in your model for cities made of timbers and destroyed by fires.

      Earthen mound fortification and timber palisades around every city.

      Feasibility of shipping timbers from the land southward to the land northward.

      15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood,

      they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.

      that they should commence in digging up heaps of earth round about ALL the cities, throughout ALL the land which was possessed by the Nephites.

      10 And it came to pass as timber was exceedingly scarce in the land northward, they did send forth much by the way of shipping.

    2. David - Its absolutely amazing to me that you can't figure any of this out. The North American model is the most ridiculous model other than the Malaysian model. Del destroyed your model a year ago. Why are you here again peddling your garbage? He just destroyed it in the last post on what a foundation means and the technology that the Jews had in Jerusalem. I actually get a kick out of Del taking your model apart piece by piece. So keep on coming back because its really fun to see the logic of his arguments and the lack thereof of yours.

  11. David: When Nephi arrived in the Land of Promise, he had some 25 to 30 years experience in cities, homes, and region that was built entire of stone—stone homes, buildings, temples, etc. None with wood, other than as structural support such as pillars, roof beams, paneling, etc. He built a ship out of wood at the Lord's direction, among other things, but that had nothing to do with a building type of construction—ships float and require water-tight construction, but are not structural like buildings with bases (foundations, etc.)
    His experience in building on his father’s farm outside of Jerusalem would have been with stone, since there are no wood buildings of any kind in Jerusalem dating back to nearly a thousand years before Nephi's birth.
    You can claim anything you want, but stone would have been Nephi's choice of building since that was the only city and house building material he would have known. The odds are far more in favor of his building out of stone than wood. Chances are you do not read what is written but skim over things and then react. As stated above in my first comment to you is that no Hebrew believer in God would every consider building a temple out of wood. Stone was what all Hebrew temples were built out of—that is stone, because it is enduring, costly, takes considerable effort and skill to use, and is a sign of devotion to God. Anyone can build out of wood, but few can built out of stone!
    When Nephi taught his people how to build, he tells us: “And I did teach my people to build buildings,” --- [one subject matter, one of construction] --- “and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores,” --- [which is a second subject matter, one of decoration] --- “which were in great abundance” --- [the material for the decoration part was in great abundance, since “building” cannot be considered here as it is not a product, so it cannot be in great abundance].
    Now when it comes to the actual building part, Nephi states: “And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon's temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.” This shows you that the materials Nephi used were like those used in Solomon’s Temple, i.e., stone throughout, decorated with wooden panels, pillars, roof beams, etc.
    As I have said before, which it seems highly unlikely you read what is written, or if you do, you simply do not understand it—your arguments are basically opinions, not facts, knowledge, historically supported, etc.
    I simply do not have time to spend on discussion with someone who is ignorant of facts and knowledge. If others want to debate your comments, fine. But I’m not interested until you mature enough to discuss factual data with a background of knowledge and not opinions.

  12. Del you make to many ASSUMPTIONS. You highlight a South American civilization and assume that it is Nephite when how they built their city and fortified it is different then the written record.

    Your assumption is that the Nephites built cities out of stone and fortified their cities only using stone.

    The written record state they built their cities synagogues and buildings out of wood and their cities were destroyed by fire. With no mention of stone being used to make buildings.
    The written record states that they fortified their cities with earthen embankments and timber stockades in all their lands.

    Del PLEASE show evidence of cities made from timbers and earthen embankment at each location

    PLEASE show South American civilizations that lived in tents as the Nephites and lamanites did.

    PLEASE show how the Nephites shipped timbers from the land southward to the land northward.

    I don’t want to see assumptions anymore. I would like to see FACTUAL evidence that matches the WRITTEN RECORD not assumptions.

    1. He already has shown you the scriptural record and the reality of life among the Jews. You are simply too stupid to understand.

  13. David, you wrote above: “Iterry FYI the North American Indians lived in tents as well as their ancestors the lamanites and Nephites. 
and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains;
therefore they took their tents and their families and departed into the wilderness.”
    This is one of the most outlandish, though humorous things you have stated. First of all, when I was in the military, we would sometimes travel long distances to move the battalion from Point A to Point B (C, D, and E, etc.) During those moves, we would be gone for days, sometimes weeks on end. We lived in tents, sometimes slept out in the open in dug foxholes. But we did not “live in tents.” We just used them for convenience under the circumstances.
    When Mormon and his army (along with the women and children in their midst) were running for their lives during the many years after being driven out of their homes and conceding the Land Southward to the Lamanites, and retreating from battle to battle with the Lamanites hot on their heels for several years, it is understandable they lived in tents. In fact, they lived in tents for the entire time of these final wars because they were mobile, keeping ahead of the much larger Lamanite army who was bent on their total destruction. During that time it is mentioned that they came to city after city and took the Nephites living in those cities with them ahead of the invading Lamanites who destroyed the cities and killed all those who they caught up with (Mormon 5:5).
    That is not the same as “living” in tents as you claim. The Nephites, once arriving in the Land of Promise and building the city of Nephi, lived in buildings and homes, not tents.
    When traveling, Nephites lived in tents, just like building-dwelling Americans do today when they go to the mountains on vacation, etc.
    As for the Lamanites, only those in the west and east seashore wilderness lived in tents—the rest evidently lived in vacated cities the Nephites had earlier built. In fact, the Lamanites (along with Nephite defectors) built cities, including the city of Jerusalem (Alma 21:2).
    Obviously, it is true that the North American Indians lived in tents, but the Nephites never did except for those periods where they were traveling between areas. Have you not read the scriptures?

  14. David: You wrote: “The written record state they built their cities synagogues and buildings out of wood and their cities were destroyed by fire.”
    Your statement is false. Alma tells us differently: “And Alma and Amulek went forth preaching repentance to the people in their temples, and in their sanctuaries, and also in their synagogues, which were built after the manner of the Jews” (Alma 16:13). Built after the manner of the Jews can only be talking about stone since throughout Israel, all ancient buildings, including synagogues were shown to have been built of stone.

  15. As for fire. As we have stated many times, all stone buildings use wood or timber for support beams, alway ceiling beams, roofing, porches, sometimes stairways, etc., and those burn, and when burned, they collapse and the stone they support collapses with them. Even the castles of Europe were "burned to the ground" with only outside walls sometimes left standing. It is no proof that the entire building was made of wood that they were burned. Rome, which was burned in the time of Nero, was built of stone.