Saturday, February 2, 2019

Being in the Camp of the Heartland Theory – Part I

Despite the continual discounting to the Heartland Theory and all its claims, we still receive numerous comments from readers regarding this “non-issue” subject that seems to have legs of its own because of the enormous misinformation continually disseminated by its promoters. Another response was received recently that takes more space to answer than is possible in our normal comments sections, so we are responding to it in this article. The reader’s statement in given here in full, and afterward we will answer each and every point.
    “I am not smart enough to argue for or against convincingly of whatever points you have made myself, which is why I simply said watch Wayne May's videos before dismissing them out of hand. However, I was just stating that I'm in the camp of the Heartland model proposed by Wayne May and Rod Meldrum, because it makes sense to me. This is [sic] some reason's [sic] why: We know that the plates were recovered by Joseph Smith on the hill in New York that Joseph referred to as the Hill Cumorah. We know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the land across the river from Nauvoo, Christ wanted it to be called Zarahemla. Those two points are very powerful to me that we are in the right area. Then there is the trek Joseph and company made from Ohio to Missouri (Zions camp) in which Joseph declared they were traveling over the lands of the Book of Mormon. Zelph's mound was referred to as the burial place of Zelph, a Lamanite, and good man who fought for the Nephites. Then there is the Book of Mormon prophecy about the gentiles who will come to the America's, and would be in a land of Liberty. That does not fit anywhere but the United States. That is very compelling. Then there is [sic] the parallels between the time frame of the peoples now known as the Hopewell culture to the Nephite/Lamanite Book of Mormon people. Pretty close as to be an almost exact match. The fact the Hopewell culture left evidence that they died out in the New York area after thriving in Ohio and the midwest for so long. The only DNA found to this date, that could possibly be from middle east peoples, is found in the Algonquian tribes and nowhere else. Many Algonquian tribes, (Possibly Mulekites) say their ancestry came from the east, and down the Saint Lawrence river to the Great Lakes, from across the sea, not from the west or south. Most of the DNA found in the South American peoples are thought to have originated from China etc. The fact that Ancient Jews did not build Temples or altars with stairs, but used ramps. North America mound builders used ramps, Central and South American Temples used stairs. That is all very compelling. Everything I have seen and read is just more compelling to me with the Heartland Model than with the Central America or South America models. That is all I'm saying is that from the theories put forth, the Heartland model seems like the best theory to me. That is where I'm at [sic].”  KX.
    In response to this reader’s comments we submit the following:
• Reader: “I am not smart enough to argue for or against convincingly of whatever points you have made myself…”
Response: None of us are smart enough to counter either the Lord or the ancient prophet’s writings, which is why we continually state that if it doesn’t match the scriptures (not your personal interpretation, or anyone else’s personal interpretation, but the clear and precise language and meaning of the prophets, especially Mormon, in this case, then it cannot be correct.
• Reader: “…which is why I simply said watch Wayne May's videos before dismissing them out of hand.”
Wayne May’s books and sone of his videos, the latter being pretty much a visual coverage of what is in his books

Response: We do not dismiss anyone’s views “out of hand,” which phrase, by the way, means “without taking time to think.” We read over everyone’s views, opinions, speculation, and erroneous views, looking for some truth in matching them with the scriptural record. In fact, we have read all of May’s works and seen the videos—the problem lies in his not following the scriptural record closely enough to be even close to accurate in most cases.
• Reader: “I'm in the camp of the Heartland model proposed by Wayne May and Rod Meldrum, because it makes sense to me.”
Response: What makes sense to any one of us is not the issue. What is important and the only criteria involved is whether or not it matches the descriptive writing of Mormon and the other ancient prophets regarding Lehi’s land that was promised to him. This is why the scriptural record should always be the main criteria for pursing Book of Mormon knowledge.
• Reader:  “This is some reason's [sic] why: We know that the plates were recovered by Joseph Smith on the hill in New York...”
Response: You are confusing where Joseph was told to obtain the records, from the drumlin hill in western New York, with the Hill Ramah, identified by the Jaredites, and the Hill Cumorah, so called by Mormon, in the scriptural record. First of all, there is no tie-in of these two hills so indicated in the scriptural record. Also, consider:
1. Moroni never said where he was going to hide or bury the plates, all he said was “Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth” (Mormon 8:4). The records Moroni had, which are the plates delivered to Joseph Smith, are different from “all the records” Mormon hid in the Hill Cumorah (Mormon 6:6).
2. The final battle at Cumorah took place in 385 AD, while Moroni’s last entry was in 421 AD. Where Moroni was at the time he hid up the plates in the earth is unknown, though we know it was 36 or more years later, during which time he avoided contact with the Lamanites, kept out of sight as he wandered the land, trying to keep from getting killed. Generally, one would do this by removing himself from the presence and location of those who sought his life—in other words, he left the area of Cumorah where some half a million Lamanites were congregated, and beginning to war among themselves in the blood-lust after effects of annihilating the Nephites…a civil war that lasted more than 36 years, and evidently a lot longer than that.
3. Just after the battle in 385 AD, Moroni said, “how long the Lord will suffer that I may live I know not.” Several years later, he writes: “I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished” (Moroni 1:1), and began writing what is known as the Book of Moroni, in which he states of the Lamanites: “their wars are exceedingly fierce among themselves” (Moroni 1:2), some twenty or more years after stating: “the Lamanites are at war one with another; and the whole face of this land is one continual round of murder and bloodshed; and no one knoweth the end of the war” (Mormon 8:8). He also said, “I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life” (Moroni 1:3). Obviously, Moroni was alive 36 years after Cumorah in which he had been running and hiding, trying to stay alive and out of sight of the warring Lamanites who roamed the land in search of prey. The idea that he would have still been near Cumorah seems extremely unrealistic, for that was the area the Lamanites began warring with each other.
• Reader: “…that Joseph referred to as the Hill Cumorah.”
Response: There is no record that Joseph Smith ever referred to the drumlin hill in Manchester, western New York, as “Cumorah.” In fact, in his account in the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith refers to the hill where the plates were buried, but never calls it by any name. In the Doctrine and Covenants the name 'Cumorah' appears only one time, in an 1842 epistle written by Joseph Smith: “And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah” (D&C 128:20), however, we do not know if he was referring to the hill where the plates were found, or whether he was using a word that had been in common usage among members for a few years, or if the word Cumorah had some deeper significance, like the word “Zion” has.
    It should be noted that the first use of the name “Cumorah” was by W. W. Phelps in 1833 (William W. Phelps, “The Book of Mormon,” The Evening and the Morning Star, vol.1, no. 8, January 1833, p57). The following year, Oliver Cowdery used the term Cumorah in his letters written to Phelps. Sometime thereafter, it began to be used until it was common among members to call the hill by the name of Cumorah.
(See the next post, “Being in the Camp of the Heartland Theory – Part II,” for more of this reader’s comments and our responses)

12 comments:

  1. I had someone today ask me if Moroni was in South America... how long did it take him to deliver the plates to New York.

    I measured from the Hill Cumorah in Ecuador to New York and figured it to be 4500 miles. If he walked 10 miles a day... it would take him 450 days. If a man walks 4 miles in an hour... and walks for 5 hours a day... that is 20 miles a day which would then take him 247.5 days which is less than a year.

    So though the distance seems great... the time to get there would not be. Especially walking 20 miles in a day. If he walked 3 miles an hour and walked for 5 hours... that is 15 miles a day or 300 days to get there. So almost a year.

    This is of course that the Lord had to tell him where it was he was going so he could bury the plates in the right place. If he died in South America.. then as a resurrected or translated being... he could get the plates and transport himself most likely at the speed of thought... or in other words... no time a all. :-)

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  2. I believe he was translated and twinkled himself there.

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    1. He appeared to Joseph with a physical body. I have always understood he was resurrected, not translated.

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  3. Translation is a continuation of life as a mortal. Death is suspended. So yes he has a physical body and in a Terrestrial state. It's a change but not equal to resurrection. At some point he would be changed from moral to immortal in the twinkling of an eye.

    Joseph saw him carrying the plates at one time along a road. I do not believe a resurrected and glorified person would do this, only a translated person. That's my opinion for what it's worth.

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  4. Actually, to understand things of this nature, it is helpful to stop thinking as a mortal with finite knowledge, but to realize the Lord works on an infinite scale of time and circumstances. We know that the plates were returned to a room (no doubt in a vision) that has been described as full of plates and records, of which Brigham Young said there were enough plates to fill several wagons. There are evidently, within the spiritual sphere, areas where Earth records are kept for some future purpose. To think that Moroni’s plates spent 1500 years buried in the ground is too far fetched for me. The Lord can obscure matters from mortals merely by taking them within the veil where he exists (Ether 3:6-20), or into a different sphere than exists in mortality. It would seem that Moroni either 1) buried the plates somewhere before his death, which Joseph Smith said he met in a fight with the Lamanites, who killed him, or 2) the records were brought into that spiritual sphere at the time of, just before, or after his death. And there they rested until needed to be brought forth again into the mortal sphere for Joseph Smith of obtain.
    The idea that Moroni walked 4500 miles from Ecuador to New York is a mortal idea, one most mortals cannot see beyond, but the lord does not work in the mortal world, all things are spiritual to him and his existence transcends such mundane spheres as being limited to just mortal abilities.
    The fact that the hill in western New York along the then Palmyra-Manchester border was because that was where Joseph Smith was located, and that hill, though quite small and insignificant, was the largest and highest hill in the vicinity and the place the Lord’s Plan called for, and from which the Restoration was to issue forth.

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  6. I don't understand something. You say that, "You are confusing where Joseph was told to obtain the records, from the drumlin hill in western New York, with the Hill Ramah, identified by the Jaredites, and the Hill Cumorah, so called by Mormon, in the scriptural record. First of all, there is no tie-in of these two hills so indicated in the scriptural record." I agree with this, but how do you explain the statement in the Book of Mormon introduction, "After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the Hill Cumorah." This statement indicates that Moroni hid the plates in the Hill Cumorah. Is the LDS church leadership confused about the distinction the "Hill Cumorah" as we now call it (the location where J.S. retrieved the plates) and the Hill Cumorah as referred to in the Book of Mormon by Mormon (and Moroni) as the location where Mormon deposited the large volume of records?

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  7. I also have a second question that has bothered me in regards to this subject. Ether 15:11 “And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.”
    How did Moroni know that this was the same hill (Cumorah) that his father, Mormon, concealed the records. He is reading an ancient record of an extinct people, with different names for the same locations (Ramah/Cumorah). Moroni doesn’t indicate that an angel or the Lord told him it was the same hill. Is there a map associated? Did it contain more geographical information that we are not informed of? He adds it almost as an afterthought, it’s like more of a factoid or interesting information. How did Moroni know this is the same spot, since the Jaredite record is as vague as the BoM about locations? What are the odds that both nations have their final battle in the same location?

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    1. We have to trust that Mormon would not say that Ramah and Cumorah were the same place if he did not know for sure. He does not say how he knew, but that does not mean he did not know for sure.

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  8. Marsthing. You wrote: “How do you explain the statement in the Book of Mormon introduction, ‘After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the Hill Cumorah.’”
    First of all, there was no “Introduction” in Joseph Smith’s original writing and published in the 1830 edition. What was included was a title page, which was written by Moroni, and read: “Written, and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed; to come forth by the gift and power of God, unto the interpretation thereof; sealed by the hand of Moroni and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by the way of Gentile.”
    The title page in the 1920 Book of Mormon is: “Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—to come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile.”
    In addition, the “Brief Analysis” following the title page in the 1920 addition (not found in the original 1830 edition), states in paragraph 9: “The period covered by the Book of Mormon annals extends from B.C. 600 to A.D. 421. In or about the latter year, Moroni, the last of the Nephite historians, sealed the sacred record and hid it up unto the Lord, to be brought forth in the latter days as predicted by the voice of God through his ancient prophets. In A.D. 1827 this same Moroni, then a resurrected personage, delivered the engraved plates to Joseph Smith.”
    In the 1981 edition (and also the 1984 edition), in addition to this title page (which remains the same), a lengthy “Introduction” was added, evidently by the Scriptures Committee, and states in part "After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the Hill Cumorah." It is possible that the person(s) who wrote this meant to, or should have, included a comma between “own,” and “hid,” to offset an inclusion or parenthetical insertion, making the sentence read: “After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, and hid up the plates in the Hill Cumorah, (“who added a few words of his own” being the parenthetical insertion about Moroni, not about Mormon hiding up the records in the hill). However, we have no way of knowing if this was the intent, or simply the belief or opinion of the person(s) who wrote it that Moroni hid up the records in the hill—however, the latter is not so stated in Moroni’s account: “Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth” (Mormon 8:4)…
    (Continued)

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  9. (Continuing)
    It should be noted that the official Church statement governing the changes to the “Introduction,” which appeared in 1981, were stated as: “The current Introduction page in the Book of Mormon was not part of the original text translated by Joseph Smith Jr. The Introduction was written and published at the same time additional materials including footnotes and cross references were added in 1981.” These are not revelatory changes, nor even grammatical changes, such as punctuation, which was not in the original Joseph Smith translation, but additions of non-doctrinal information inserted to aid the reader in better understanding the overall picture of the Book of Mormon.
    Consequently, there is no doctrinal, i.e., scriptural, reference to where Moroni hid up the records, only that he said it would be in the ground, which would have been at least 36 years after the final battle at Cumorah, and no doubt Moroni was far from the area of Cumorah when he was finished.
    You also wrote: “How did Moroni know it was the same hill (Cumorah) that his father, Mormon concealed the records.” The best answer for this is found in Joseph Smith’s personal record, printed under “Origin of the Book of Mormon” in the 1920 edition. In paragraph 8, he states “While he [Moroni] was conversing with me about the plates, the vision was opened to my mind that I could see the place where the plates were deposited, and that so clearly and distinctly that I knew the place again when I visited it.” He adds in paragraph 16, “I left the field, and went to the place where the messenger had told me the plates were deposited; and owing to the distinctness of the vision which I had had concerning it, I knew the place the instant that I arrived there.”
    The Lord, of course, operates on a far different level than mortal man, and is not limited to the limitations of mortality—he can, has, and does show “visions,” that is, when speaking to man, often shows through visual means that to which he is referring for better and more complete understanding. How Mormon and Moroni knew the hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon was the same hill as that which the Jaredites called Ramah, is not explained, but of a type we have answers that are quite clear to us when we consider them.

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    1. Thank you for your detailed response Del. I appreciate it!

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