1. Our Post said: "all would be extremely difficult to guard against an attacking enemy across a 45-mile front" in referring to the width of the Baja theory narrow neck of land.
Eldeau's comment: "The Baja model places the Land of Bountiful right in front of the so-called 45-mile front just like the Book of Mormon says. In fact, almost the entire feature described by this article as a "45-mile front" is naturally defended by many impassable mountains. The only reasonable entrance to the Baja model's "Land of Desolation" is a narrow passage (perfectly described by Mormon) on the East near the coast which makes for a great place to put up a defense."
Response: First of all, Mormon describes a "narrow neck of land" separating the Land of Bountiful and the Land of Desolation. Baja Calfornia does not really have a "narrow" or "small" neck of land as shown on the map below. The coastal shorelines are quite similar on both coasts in a more or less straight line throughout.
Secondly, and more importantly, we are not talking about putting up a simple defense in one location, but a defense that keeps anyone from moving from the Land Southward into the Land Northward. A defense along a coastal path or passage on the East coast does not defeat a dedicated enemy from seeking egress into the northern land along the West coast, or through numerous mountain canyons, passes, and even elevated valleys. In the "Google" map below, the yellow path is an egress/ingress movement from the south into the north along the East Coast as Elbeau described as the "only reasonable entrance to the Baja model's "Land of Desolation" is a narrow passage (perfectly described by Mormon) on the East near the coast which makes for a great place top put up a defense."
The problem arises when we start talking about reasonable. A dedicated army can find ingress into a land by other than "reasonable" means. Hannibal proved that when attacking Rome by going over the Alps; MacArthur proved that by circling around and landing at Inchon in the desperate early days of the Korean War; the Germans proved that by going around the vaunted French Maginot Line during World War II. There have been numerous other military leaders in history that have achieved similar means of circumventing an enemy blockade or defensive position.
To talk about an area "which makes for a great place to put up a defense," does not mean that is is the only area where a defense could be set up, nor where an enemy could seek passage from one area to another. For such an area to be acceptable it must be what is called "a choke point." That is, the ONLY place where an enemy can pass, and narrow enough for a small force to block a large enemy infiltration.
During the Korean War, my Sixth Artillery unit (I served with them after this time, including being their historian) was stationed at an unnamed pass south of Sinuiju across from the Yalu River--a singular passage leading through this part of the mountains into North Korea from Manchuria--when the Chinese communists attacked in early November, 1950, in wave after wave of bugle-blowing troops. A small artillery battery held that pass for several days as maddened Chinese troops died by the hundreds trying to penetrate the Sixth's position. However, in other passes, the 8th Cavalry was overrun and Chinese troops eventually poured into North Korea. Unfortunately for the U.S. (and U.N.) at the time, there was more than one choke point into North Korea, even though a large river separated the border for more than a hundred miles.
The point is, for the narrow neck of land mentioned in the scriptural record, and described by Mormon as a means to keep the Lamanites form reaching the Land Northward, there has to be only ONE choke point that can be defended and, if held, keep an enemy from circumventing the defense and getting around them into the land beyond. Baja California simply does not meet that requirement.
Lastly, on this point, while there are mountain ranges through this 45-mile wide so-called "narrow neck" of land, these ranges run vertically, not horizontally. That is, they run from the United States (Southern California, Western Arizona) through the entire Baja Peninsula to the southern tip. While any mountain range can be difficult to cross if you have to go over it, every range that runs north and south, as an example, will have valleys, canyons, and passes that run parallel with it, between the several ranges or peaks. Thus, defeating any benefit from one guarded passage.
(See the next post, "A Reader's Exception to Baja Critique--Part II," for more of Elbeau's disagreement to our earlier series of posts and our response)
As I mentioned in my recent response to your article:
ReplyDeletehttp://nephicode.blogspot.com/2011/01/fallacy-of-extremist-theoriesthe-baja.html
I only recently realized that you wrote these responses, so please excuse my delay in responding.
Also, when I first commented in 2011, I was still working out a different model of the Book of Mormon lands in Baja and the North American Southwest (http://bofmmodel.org). Since that time, I have learned some new things and my opinion about the "Narrow Pass" has changed significantly since that time and I believe that I was incorrect when I said in 2011 that the passage near the east coast was the "only reasonable entrance to the Baja model's Land of Desolation".
I no longer subscribe to the Rosenvalls' assertion that the "Narrow Pass" that Mormon referred to was along the eastern coast. Instead I propose that it was at a place called "La Angostura", closer to the west coast. A prominent anthropologist described La Angostura in 2007 as follows:
“La Angostura seems to be a component of a dynamic coast-interior interaction sphere…where interior products could be had by groups that also used the moderately close coast for its marine goods. This is the first location east of the Pacific coast along a presumed ancient and modern major pathway where a large cliff face would be available for rock art decoration. This is the setting of a narrows and also an entryway to resource-abundant interior lands that could compliment the nearby coastal resource base…This corridor was used in the Mission period and continues as a significant route into modern times. This passageway, following a well-traveled dirt road and east-west arroyo system, was a logical choice for initiating archaeological explorations of prehistoric interactions” (http://www.xaguaro.com/MemoriasCD/page3/styled-32/styled-49/index.html)
In regards to the narrow neck (as opposed to the narrow pass) of land, I agree that this geographical feature started at or near the point that you label in yellow as "Narrow Neck of Land" in the first set of images in this article. Contrary to the Rosenvall's model, I think that the "neck" of land that the Book of Mormon describes is not just the fortified line between Bountiful and Desolation. I think that it describes the land between the yellow line you drew all the way up until about the area of El Marmol.
You said:
"Baja Calfornia does not really have a "narrow" or "small" neck of land as shown on the map below. The coastal shorelines are quite similar on both coasts in a more or less straight line throughout."
It is true that the Baja peninsula has narrow topography, but that does not make all widths equal. Remember, the authors of the Book of Mormon were not looking at satellite images that compared Baja to the whole world when they described their lands. The Nephite lands in Baja were in the widest portion of the peninsula and had areas that were significantly more narrow to the north and to the south. It is common to talk about the fortified line north of Bountiful, but much less common to talk about the fortified line south of Zarahemla. Please remember, Moroni caused his people to fortify a line from coast to coast south of Zarahemla (see Alma 50:7-11).
The Book of Mormon consistently describes narrow topography, particularly on the north and south of Zarahemla, and both of those areas were used as fortified defensive lines at different points in Nephite history. The Baja peninsula is a beautiful match to these geographical descriptions. A Nephite living in the traditional Nephite lands in and around Zarahemla lived within the widest geographical land mass that they were familiar with. The reference to the narrow neck makes perfect sense when considered from the point of view of a Nephite instead of from the point of view of a satellite.
continued below...
...continued from above:
ReplyDeleteYou said:
"more importantly, we are not talking about putting up a simple defense in one location, but a defense that keeps anyone from moving from the Land Southward into the Land Northward. A defense along a coastal path or passage on the East coast does not defeat a dedicated enemy from seeking egress into the northern land along the West coast, or through numerous mountain canyons, passes, and even elevated valleys...For such an area to be acceptable it must be what is called "a choke point." That is, the ONLY place where an enemy can pass, and narrow enough for a small force to block a large enemy infiltration."
It is true that that narrow neck was a defensible position for the Nephites, but you are incorrect to state that the narrow neck could be protected by only defending the narrow pass. The Book of Mormon states:
"And there they did fortify against the Lamanites, from the west sea, even unto the east; it being a day’s journey for a Nephite, on the line which they had fortified and stationed their armies to defend their north country." (Helaman 4:7)
The line from the east sea to the west sea was fortified. Not just a "choke point". These coast-to-coast fortifications would have been unnecessary if the narrow pass was the only possible route into the north countries. The narrow pass sounds like a very strategic point, but it was not the only only way into the Land Desolation.
With this in mind, you might ask why it was that the Lamanites didn't just go around Mormon's armies and attack some weaker fortification along the defensive line. The Book of Mormon is silent on this. What we do know is that that the ancient natives of the peninsula actively used La Angostura to travel from south to north and from coast to coast. On the other hand, when the Spanish built the Camino Real, they chose a more easterly route instead of making a detour far to the west through La Angostura. The result of their efforts was a very famous section of the Camino Real which travelers dubbed "Journey of the Flame". The road was so brutal that an historical novel by that name was even published about it. It was a life-threatening, dangerous journey. Maybe this was why Mormon could mount a strong defense at the narrow pass, but I am just speculating. Like I said, the text is silent on this question.
Correction:
ReplyDeleteI said: "What we do know is that that the ancient natives of the peninsula actively used La Angostura to travel from south to north and from coast to coast."
Although I think it makes sense for La Angostura to be an ancient north/south access route, I don't know of any direct evidence of such a north/south use of the pass. Current evidence substantiates it's use as an east/west corridor, consistent with travel among locations on the fortified line.