Continuing with the
article we ran across on the internet and decided it would make a good posting
based on the numerous errors and misstatements it contained:
Comment:
“Alma 63:7 shows
that Hagoth's ship went to the land northward and returned in less than a
year. The borders of land Bountiful and the land Desolation by the narrow
neck by the west sea was the port for the ship. The phrase 'to the land
northward' indicates that the land northward did not border the narrow neck and
did not include the land Desolation (which did border the narrow neck).”
Response: Actually, the statement
is that the ship went north in the thirty–seventh year, and returned in the
thirty–eighth year—which could have been one year, or almost two years (Alma
63:4, 7).
By comparison, in the 18th century, a sailing voyage from England across the Atlantic to Philadelphia took 60 to 80 days--3 months tops. With 4 months refitting, refurbishing and restocking, a direct round trip of about 7,000 miles could take approximately one year or less--obviously a far greater distance than Hagoth's ships traveled
As for the phrase cited, it is at the end of a
sentence describing that the first ship, after returning to the northward
indicates the land northward is not close to the narrow neck port along the
northern coast of the Land Bountiful by the narrow neck, set out again for the
Land Northward. The actual shipyard and port was not located in the Land
Northward, or in the narrow neck of land, but in the northern extreme limit of
the Land Southward (Land of Bountiful). The location is described as “on the
borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth
into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward” (Alma
63:5). Thus, the shipyard was by the
narrow neck, on the borders of the
land bountiful by the Land
Desolation. There is absolutely no suggestion anywhere in the scriptural record
to suggest that the land of Desolation was not in the Land Northward.
Comment:
“People were leaving
the land of Zarahemla to go to the land northward, and “they came to large
bodies of water, and many rivers” (Helaman 3:4). The term 'bodies' is
plural, so there were at least two large bodies of water (lakes) and many
rivers near, or in, the land northward. No fountains are mentioned in the
description.”
Response: The area in the Land
Northward associated with “bodies of water” are more correctly referred to as
an area of “many waters” (Mosiah 8:8). In Helaman the description of reaching
this land was: ”they did travel to an exceedingly
great distance,” (Helaman 3:4) and the term is “large bodies of water and many
rivers.” In Mosiah, they “traveled in a land among many waters” and the land
was “covered with bones and with ruins of buildings.” Mormon himself uses the
term “many waters, rivers, and fountains” (Mormon 6:4) which was in the Land of
Cumorah, an area far north in the Land of Northward. In Ether, the area of the
hill Cumorah—the Jaredite hill Ramah (Ether 15:15:11)—was just south of
Ripliancum, the large body of water that “exceeded all” (Ether 15:8). When
putting all three of these together, we find one land of many waters, where
there were rivers and fountains as Mormon described it, that was in the
northern part of the Land Northward. The idea that the word “fountain” was not
included in each of the three descriptions should not be taken as a reason to
say these were separate places. In this sense, then, “bodies of water” should
not be taken as a separate place from “many waters,” and therefore, the term
“bodies” is not to be construed as at least two when compared with “many,”
which should be interpreted as far more than two—in fact, the definition is “a
large (numerous) number.”
Comment:
“The land Northward
is northward of the land of Zarahemla by an 'exceeding great distance'.
It is interesting to note that the land northward has at least one large body
of water and that the Jaredites a few hundred years before the Nephites
describe in the Book of Ether a large body of water in the northernmost parts
of their land as the waters of Ripliancum.”
Response: All the land north of
the narrow neck (blue arrows) is called the Land Northward (red arrow). The fact that it extends a
considerable distance (“exceeding great distance”) only means that the land is
large. It cannot be translated as saying there was a land far to the north of
the narrow neck of land that was called the Land Northward. That it began just
past the narrow neck is seen: “he also sent orders unto him that he should
fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land
northward” (Alma 52:9) and also “by the narrow neck which led into the land
northward” (Alma 63:5—see also Alma 22:32; 50:11; 50:34; 51:30).
Comment: “Helaman 3:8 tells us those who went into the Land Northward and that
they did multiply and spread, and
did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread
insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea
south, to the sea north, from the sea west, to the sea east. This
is the only reference to the sea north and the sea south and there is
insufficient information in this verse to place the sea north and sea south in
relation to any other location.”
Response: The statement “from the
land southward to the land northward” should make it clear that both in the
Land Southward and in the Land Northward, the Nephites multiplied and spread
from sea to sea, i.e., from the east to the west and from the north to the
south. Stated less colorfully, the Nephites spread from sea to sea and covered
all four quarters of the entire land. The placement of the north and south seas should be quite clear to anyone but a Mesoamericanist--there were four seas and they lay in each of the four cardinal directions: north, south, east, and west. That the Land of Promise was an island (2 Nephi 10:20) should then tell us that the Land of Promise was surrounded by water--only continual body of water, which was given names by the Nephites according to the cardinal directions.
Comment: “This puts the land of Zarahemla close to the land southward.”
Response: The City of Zarahemla and the Land of Zarahemla (red arrow) are within the greater Land Southward (yellow arrow), not close to it. This is borne out by numerous scriptures throughout the Book of Mormon, beginning with Mormon's insertion in Alma 22:27-34).
Comment: “It was easier to get wood to the land northward by ship from the area
around the narrow neck than by an overland route. This also indicates
that there was a port near the land northward to offload the timber and either
the land northward bordered the Sea West or there was a route from the port to
the land northward.”
Response: We don’t know that it
was easier to go by ship. It could have been cheaper. It could have been less
dangerous. It could have been faster. There could have been some physical
obstacles between the narrow neck and the specific place the lumber was to
reach preventing an overland route (canyon, mountain, etc). There may have been a port, docks, etc., or
the lumber might have been offloaded by barge.And as stated above, there is no mystery about the west sea and the land northward--the sea surrounded the land northward since it was an island!
Comment: “In 3 Nephi 3:24, the term 'fortify' indicates the area where they were
located had a distinct boundary since fortification is done around a specific
area.”
Response: When the early pioneers
circled the wagons against an Indian attack, they did not have a specific area
that delineated their fortification—only the extent that their wagons would
encircle within reason (large wagon trains had two circles, one inside the
other). The Nephites were not fortifying an area, but fortifying where
they were, to protect themselves against expected attacks by the Robbers.
Comment: “The phrase 'in the land
southward' also indicates an area distinctly different than the areas that the
Nephites occupied. If the land southward referred to all of the lands
southward of the narrow neck, then most of the Nephites would have already been
in the land southward and there would have been no need to move to another
area. This implies that the land southward is a specific area. The
area had to sustain tens of thousands (III Nephi 3:16), so it is a fairly large
area.”
Response: There seems to be a
continual problem here as to where the Land Southward is located, and what the
scriptural record says from time to time when, in all reality, it is quite clear. In this case,
because the Land Southward is a very large area, the people were told to gather
in “the center of our lands” (3 Nephi 3:21). What does that mean? Consider that
the population of South Bend, Indiana, is 101,081 (2011), and the seating
capacity of Notre Dame stadium is 80,795. On game day the city is pretty much
vacant as 80,794 people flood into the house that Knute Rockne built. Or stated
differently, 80,795 people went from a much larger area (the town-about 41
square miles) to a smaller area (the stadium, a few acres), but within the same
area (town of South Bend).
As for the Nephites, they went
from a larger area (the Land Southward overall), to a smaller area—the Land of
Zarahemla to the narrow neck of land (3 Nephi 3:23), but still within the overall
Land Southward.
(See the next post,
“The Land Northward – Part V,” for more information from the Article and our
responses to it)
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