We continue with John R’s January 2014 rebuttal of
our March 1, 2011 article series on Mesoamerica, which did not come to our
attention until now. In the last post, we were answering the comment:
“… and since
the Nephites undoubtedly knew what an isthmus was and where the isthmus (of
Tehuantepec) was located, they might very well think of it as a narrow neck.”
Since there is no Isthmus anywhere in Israel, and
certainly not along Lehi’s trek to Bountiful, one might wonder where the
Nephites learned of an isthmus. However, setting that aside, we concluded the
last post with photos from NASA of a space shot of Mesoamerica, and also photos
of shorelines, suggesting the improbability of the Nephites, if they had
occupied Mesoamerica, of knowing that Tehuantepec was an isthmus.
In concluding that thought, we should remember that
it is easy for us today, with extensive maps, GPS, google maps, satellite
photos and aerial views to understand coastlines, but in B.C. times, there is
no way anyone would know there was a narrow neck of land unless it was so
narrow, it was obvious to them either in a view from a height, or in walking
across it with measurement in mind. Let us not be so uninformed as to think
that the ancients had the kind of tools we have today for such measuring of
land and coasts.
Here
are two coastline photos providing the kind of view a Nephite would have had of
their coast. The question is, are we looking at an inlet, gulf, isthmus, or just a
simple coastline?
As for the Nephites knowing what an isthmus was, how
would we arrive at that conclusion? Except for Nephi, Sam, and Zoram, no Nephite had
ever lived anywhere but in the Land of Promise (except for Jacob and Joseph, whose early life was of a sand desert and Bountiful). There were no history or Atlas
books to describe such a land area, and up until at least the time of Mosiah,
there were obviously no maps, for people got lost trying to find lands other
than their own (Mosiah 7:4; 8:8; 21:25; 22:16; 23:30).
To understand that a “narrow neck” exists, one must
be able to compare one shoreline with the other, generally through observation
or measurement. In the case of Mesoamerica, to measure a land width of
approximately 144 miles (distance according to the Mexican government), and
then measure again some distance in either direction. However, with
Mesoamerica, the change of width is so general, that it would be very difficult
even with measuring to tell it was narrower--certainly not enough to call it a "neck."
Top:
Even from an aerial view, one cannot tell if this shoreline cuts in to a
narrower point of land, widens, or just runs straight; Bottom: To understand
that a narrow neck exists, it needs to be seen, or a view of both oceans almost
simultaneously needs to exist
In addition, the word isthmus (defined originally as “narrow strip of land,” and today as
“a narrow strip of land connecting two larger masses of land and has water on
both sides”) came into our language in 1545 A.D., from the Latin isthmus, taken from Ancient Greek isthmós, meaning neck, with the same cognate (linguistic derivation) as Old Norse eiö. Considered to be from eimi (to go) and the suffix -thmo (step, movement).
Despite your unresearched and flippant comment about
the Nephites knowing what an isthmus was, they obviously did not have much
experience with such a land area, for they did not even have a word for it.
From Joseph Smith’s translation, it would appear that Mormon, Ether/Moroni, and
perhaps others simply called it a “small” or “narrow” neck of land. The word
“isthmus” neither appears in the description or naming of the area between the
Land Northward and the Land Southward, and is only used, by the way, in the
writings and thinking of Mesoamericanists—no doubt, from the term Isthmus of
Tehuantepec.
John R: “And
contrary to the article above, [the narrow neck] did not have to run east to
west, as author Del DowDell asserts.”
Response: It is not what I assert, but what the
scriptures state. This narrow neck did not run east and west. It ran north and
south in length, stretching from the Land Southward to the Land Northward and
was the only land area between these two major land masses ("the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by
water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and
the land southwar" Alma 23:32). The width of the
narrow neck (crossing in a day-and-a-half) obviously would have had to run east
and west since both the width and length cannot run in the same direction.
The Land of Nephi ran from the East Sea to the West
Sea (Alma 22:27), north of that was a narrow strip of wilderness, also running
from the East Sea to the West Sea (Alma 22:27). North of this wilderness were
all the lands that the Nephites controlled (Alma 22:29), with Zarahemla north
of the narrow strip of wilderness and the Land of Bountiful to the north of
Zarahemla (Alma 22:29). To the north of Bountiful was the Land of Desolation
(Alma 22:30, 31), and separating the Land of Desolation (in the Land Northward)
and the Land of Bountiful (in the Land Southward), was “a small neck of land”
(Alma 22:32).
Now this neck of land, which obviously ran north and
south, from the Land Southward to the Land Northward, was the width of a
day-and-a-half journey for a Nephite from the “east to the west sea” (Alma
22:32).
Since the “isthmus” as you want to call it ran north
and south between the two lands, and an isthmus has water on two of its sides,
this means this narrow width had the East Sea to the east and the West Sea to
the west, and was narrow enough to be crossed in a day-and-a-half by a
Nephite—a distance we have numerous times in these posts shown to be somewhere
between about 25 and 30 miles.
I don’t assert this. Mormon tells us all this. I merely repeat it, hopefully for
clarification where needed for those who do not seem to understand Mormon's simple descriptions.
John R: “Reading
the text more carefully, we see no direction is stipulated at all ‘And now it
was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite on the line
Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea’ (Alma
22:32).”
Response: While we have Mormon’s words in our
scriptural record today separated by verses, they were not separated in his
writing, nor in Joseph Smith’s original translation. They were simply contained
on this subject in one long statement. They are now in verse form to make it
easier to read, easier to remember, and easier to later quote or reference.
Consequently, Mormon does not need to state a direction at this point, he has just spent over five verses before
this statement telling us those directions.
After all, if something (Desolation/Land Northward)
is on the north, and something (Bountiful/Land Southward) is on the south, then
something in between runs north and south, connecting these two places. This is
not rocket science, merely the clear, logical, and only conclusion from Mormon’s stated facts.
In addition, if something connects a land to the
north and a land to the south, with a sea on both sides, then logically the
seas must be to the east and west.
This is what Mormon tells us. And if this is truly an isthmus, which you
proclaim (a narrow neck of land with two major land masses, and seas to either side is the description of an isthmus), then these
two seas must be on either side of
this isthmus or narrow neck. And if it is indeed small and narrow, as Mormon
and Ether/Moroni says it is, then these seas must be fairly close to each other, otherwise, we would not have a
“narrow neck of land” between them.
John R: “Notice
the prophet doesn’t say “from the east sea to the west sea,” but “from the east
to the west sea.”
Response: First, it might be of interest to know that in the original 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon, where no paragraph, verses, or punctuation was included in the translation, the wordage was written "from the East to the West sea" with both directional words capitalized, which appears to suggest that both East and West modified "sea". This is also the same situation in the following statement "And it came to pass that the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful even from the East unto the West sea" where it would again appear that both the words East and West modified "sea".
Second, in this single statement (which we have
separated into six verses today), to add “from the east sea to the west sea”
would be rather redundant. As an example, the original statement was written (without punctuation): "And now it was only the distance of a day and a half's journey for a Nephite on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation from the East to the West sea and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla was nearly surrounded by water there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward" (1830 edition of Book of Mormon). For more information on this, see an earlier post on this subject.
(See the next post, “A Look at a Mesoamericanist
Rebuttal – Part V,” for more on John R’s rebuttal of our six-part post on Narrow Neck of Land and the Fallacy of
Mesoamerica’s Isthmus of Tehuantepec.)
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