Monday, March 7, 2016

Interesting Thoughts from a Reader and Our Responses – Part II

Continuing from the previous post regarding further insights into the comments and responses regarding the Nephites and their activities. 
    Reader: “With the only exception of King Lamoni and his father using horse-driven chariots, we have no mention that the Nephites ever traveled by horse or chariot, only that they were known to them.”
Response: In 17 A.D., during the time when the Nephites had reached their maximum in size and scope prior to the advent of the Savior, a Gadianton Robber, named Giddianhi, threathened the Nephite Nation in a letter to Governor Lachoneus, who promptly appointed a chiefest captain among the Nephites named Gidgiddoni. Now this captain was both a righteous man as well as a military genius, determined that “we will prepare ourselves in the center of our lands, and we will gather all our armies together, and we will not go against them, but we will wait till they shall come against us; therefore as the Lord liveth, if we do this he will deliver them into our hands” (3 Nephi 3:21). Lachoneous sent out a proclamation for all the Nephites and converted Lamanites to bring “their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies” (3 Nephi 3:22).
    Now, while it does not say they rode their chariots into the center of the land, chariots have but one purpose—to convey people. As the 1828 dictionary states: “a half coach; a carriage with four wheels and one seat behind, used for convenience and pleasure; a car or vehicle used formerly in war, drawn by two or more horses, and conveying two men each. These vehicles were sometimes armed with hooks or sythes.” Today’s definition is not much different; “a carriage with two wheels that was pulled by horses and was raced and used in battle in ancient times; a light four-wheeled pleasure or state carriage.”
    Consequently, we can definitely say that not only did the Nephites have chariots and horses, but likely a great many of them since they are listed first ahead of cattle and supplies, and the people came “by thousands and by tens of thousands.” It might also be considered that a people who can build with iron and steel (2 Nepih 5:15; Jarom 1:8), and make armor, shields and bucklers (3 Nephi 3:26), certainly could make chariots, and in addition, since they ”cast up many highways and many roads, which led from city to city, and from land to land, and from place to place” (3 Nephi 6:8), we might suggest that there were places to travel by chariot, even if not all roads (steps and rope bridges) were conducive to such travel.
    It is also interesting that when the Savior came and spoke to the surviving Nephites after all the destruction, he additionally warned the Nephites “wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots” (3 Npehi 21:14)
    Even the Lord knew the Nephites had chariots.
    Reader: “If the Nephites had a Navy they could have certainly used it to their advantage in troop and supplies movement in war. It seems to me that all troop movements were on foot as manifested by the fatigue felt by both sides in their vigorous pursuits of one another.”
Response: Shipping for troop movement would only have been valuable moving up and down the coast, or going around the island to bring troops from one coast to the other. However, there would have been no value in moving troops overland. First of all, rivers flow down from the mountains to the coast, and bringing a ship into a river has limited value because of going against winds and currents. Besides, the interior of their island, even as big as it was, was high in the midst because of the hills and mountains that a ship would probably not reach very far inland.
    Thus, most of the movement of troops was by foot because of the terrain.
    In the U.S. today, while we move troops by ship overseas (across oceans), we do not move them across land that way—not even back in the days before mechanized vehicles. As for having a Navy, generally speaking, you need an enemy that you can reach by sea or to defend yourself against naval attack.
    An example of that is found in the beginning of the United States. While the U.S. had a coastal defense force of a handful of gunboats, it did not have a Navy until the days of Thomas Jefferson. Don’t be fooled by the Navy tracing their establishment back to 13 October 1775, since that was only for the procurement, fitting out, manning and dispatch of two armed vessels to cruise in search of munitions ship supplying the British Army in America—and it was disbanded after the end of the Revolutionary War. Before the Revolution, merchant ships at sea were protected by the British Navy, during the Revolution, U.S. merchant ships at sea were protected by the French Navy (Treaty of Alliance). However, after the war ended, American ships entering the Mediterranean, especially along the Barbary coast were subject to attack, stop, seizure, and enslavement, by Barbary corsairs and crews from the North African Ottoman provinces of Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli, and the independent Sultanate of Morocco under the Alouite dynasty were the scourge of the Mediterranean, unless heavy ransoms were paid.
Along the North Africa coast bordering along the Western Mediterranean Sea, primarily Algiers, Tunis and Tripoli, though the Muslim pirates operated along the African and South America coasts in the Atlantic and as far north as Iceland, mainly attacking English and European, and later American, ships in their slave trade
    When Thomas Jefferson was elected, he rejected the right of Barbary pirates stopping American ships and created the United States Department of the Navy in 1798, only after having paid a million dollars in ransom (one-sixth of the entire U.S. budget then).
    Reader: “I also believe that the width of the narrow neck of land is greatly underestimated by those who can't seem to imagine what kind of great warriors Nephite men were and may have been as fit as the Spartans and could have run the entire distance from sea east to sea west in a day and a half.”
Response: Like most islands, the Land of Promise was not an even circle or rectangle, but a piece of land that was narrower in some places and wider in others (we know this simply because of the nature of all land forms). Thus, the narrowest place was at the area called the “small” or “narrow neck of land.” Mormon tells us a Nephite could cross that area in a day and a half journey. A journey implies the movement from one place to another, “the travel of a day,” and while not restricting the pace of travel, suggests it would be a normal pace, leisurely movement, or what might be normal in any age, by any normal person. Today, the term is used for a “trip, expedition, excursion, tour, trek, and includes such movement as wandering, pilgrimage, or movement from one place to another."
    Its definitions do not suggest fast paced movement, running, racing or a pace out of the ordinary. What the Spartans could do, the Mojave Indians, or a long-distant runner from Kenya, the usage in Mormon’s description is to suggest a distance measurement, which in turn implies a normal pace since no conditions were attached.
    Thus, the narrow neck of land would probably be around 25 to 40 miles ascross, making the rest of the Land Southward and the rest of the Land Northward much wider. Our best guess of the width of the land around the narrow strip of wilderness was probably about 600 miles in width from sea to sea, perhaps a little wider further south, and maybe 2000 miles from the Land of Nephi to Ripliancum. Those are just guesses, based on the configuration of the island as we think it appeared before the destruction in 3 Nephi.
    Reader: “We know that runners were the main source of communication in ancient times and we underestimate that ability amongst them.”
    Response: Not just anyone was a runner to carry messages from one place to another in ancient times. In the case of the Romans, their runners were trained practically from birth, as was the case among the Inca. Typically, in most societies, the king or leader chose young men as runners who demonstrated both a speed and endurance at running, as well as the loyalty to the kingdom or leader. Runners were never the run of the mill person until modern times when it became a job, typically on bicycles. In the military, runners were important to transport messages that could mean the different between winning or losing battle and were chosen from the fastest men in the unit, often small in size, typically low in rank.
(See the next post, “Interesting Thoughts from a Reader and Our Responses – Part III,” for more information on the comments and responses regarding the Nephites and their activities)

7 comments:

  1. Minor point 3 Nephi 21:14 is a lastdays prophecy and not directed at the Nephites or their chariots. Gentile or goi singular goyim plural in Hebrew is a term that means other nation. The term gentile is referring to us as a nation other than the Nephites. The Father is going to cut off our horses and chariots if we (other nation other than ancient Nephites) do not repent. But point well taken about chariots and there use among the Nephites. Hate to be too nit-picky of course but this is a prophecy of the lastdays not directed at the Nephites. Ira

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  2. Thank you for your information. Goi indeed means “non-Jew,” however, it more accurately means a Jew who is not religious, or is ignorant of Judaism. Taken from Goy, meaning “Gentile,” and “goyim” is the typical Hebrew term for “nation,” which, by the way, also includes Israel. So Goyim could mean Israel, and also Goi could mean Jews who do not follow Judaism (which would have described the Nephites after the advent of the Savior), i.e., people of Israel who no longer follow Judaism. Such use of “goy” dates back to 1604 in the Septuagint (LXX) Bible, and King James Version and the 1530 Tyndale Bible which followed the Latin Vulgate. It should also be noted that the word “nation” used anciently did not have the same political connotation as it does today (Guido Zernatto and Alfonso G. Mistretta, “Nation: The History of a Word,” The Review of Politics, Cambridge University Press, Vol 6 No 3, July 1944, pp351–366; see also D. J. Wiseman, “Some Archaeological Considerations,” Genesis 10, Journal of The Transactions of the Victoria Institute, Philosophical Society of Great Britain, London, 1955, p15 et al). According to the Cambridge History of Judaism, before Roman Times (before 100 B.C.), “goy” had become a word meaning non-Jewish (Volume 2, Cambridge University Press, 1989, p193); however, it is seldom used in English because it means a having a low opinion of someone (derogatory or pejorative). In the Torah, “goy” appears over 550 times in reference to Israelites and Gentile nations, first appearing in Genesis 10:5, apply harmlessly (inoffensively) or innocuously to non-Israel nations; however, in Genesis 12:2, it is used when God promises Abraham that his descendants will form a goy gadoi (great nation), and in Exodus 19:6, the Jewish people are referred to as a goy kadosh (holy nation). So we need to keep in mind that while the Bible often use goy to describe the Israelites (what would have been known to the Nephites), later Jews tended to apply the term to other nations, evolving to how it is seen today. In fact, in Rabbinic Judaism, one of the more poetic descriptions of the chosen people in the Old Testament, and popular among Jewish scholarship (2 Samuel 7:23; 1 Chronicles 17:21), as the highest description of themselves: when God proclaims in the holy writ, goy ehad b'aretz, or "a unique nation upon the earth!" Thus, in Rabbinical literature the meaning of the word "goy" shifted the Biblical meaning of "a people" which could be applied to the Hebrews/Jews as well as to others into meaning "a people other than the Jews." In later generations, a further shift left the word as meaning an individual person who belongs to such a non-Jewish people, and in modern Hebrew the word goy is the standard term for a Gentile.

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  3. (cont)
    As a result, when we look at 3 Nephi 21, verse 1 calls our attention to the House of Israel, i.e., God is talking to the Nephites (he begins talking to Israel and Jeruslame [3 Nephi 20:36-37), that his people—all Israel and specifically the Nephites (3 Nephi 20:39) and continuers to talk to Israel (3 Nephi 20:40-44); and then expands to include other nations (3 Nephi 20:45), then back to Israel and the covenant (3 Nephi 20:46), and then to to all Israel, referencing the Nephites (3 Nephi 21:1), a sign unto Israel (3 Nephi 21:2), then makes it clear with “a remnant of your seed” his taking about the Nephites (3 Nephi 21:4-5), and still with the Nephites about their seed in the future being baptized (3 Nephi 21:6), strengthens his comment about the future seed of the Nephites (3 Nephi 21:7), he then switches to the Gentiles among whom a marvelous work will be done (3 Nephi 21:8-10) though a secondary understanding is that this marvelous work will also be done amidst the future seed of the Nephites (3 Nephi 21:11), now back to the Nephites, “my people who are a remnant of Jacob” (3 Nephi 21:12), the adversaries of this remnant will be cut off (3 Nephi 21:13), now it is interesting at this point that he expands his talking about the House of Israel to include both the future remnant of Israel (Nephites) and the Gentiles (3 Nephi 21:14-19), but when he uses the word “thy” he is referring back to the Nephites among this combined group (3 Nephi 21:14). From there on, the future seed of the Nephites and the future Gentiles, who become one (as we see today in all the conversions in the Western Hemisphere), the two are pretty much being discussed as one.
    Now having said all that, I do agree that this future event has little to do with the theme of the chariots and horses possessed by the Nephites at the time of the scriptural record and Land of Promise and should not have been included as a reference in my earlier post.

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    1. It would be a hoot to attend gospel doctrine with you Del. Many have commented about 3 Nephi 21 and some get it kind of right and most don't because of the term Gentile. When the Lord or Nephi uses it in the BOM it means other nation and as you pointed out it can include anything other than the specific people the author is talking about. This has led to great confusion in this Church because many have said that the members are Gentiles who are adopted into the Church. This is not correct as Jacob 5 points out. The members that are gathered are Ephraim (pure blood) and have been gathered from the gentiles (nonIsraelites). Both are other nations or goyim. The two are not distinguished in the BOM and you have to be careful and understand the context when reading the BOM.

      Now for 3 Nephi 21 - verse 1 tells this chapter is all about the last days. This has nothing to do with the Nephites in the last days because they are all dead. The Lamanites will be gathered in the end by the other nation. Vs 5 again says when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles (Ephraim), unto your seed (Lamanites or Jacob) which shall dwindle in unbelief. The rest is all prophecy about the last days including the Marvelous work and wonder which is still future to our time and not the restoration.

      So good job on defining gentile. I which the CES of other members would figure this one out because it drives me nuts to hear them say we are just a bunch of good non-Israelite gentiles that somehow was adopted into the Church and became Israel. That is not true and in my view is a doctrine of Lucifer. Ira

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    2. It would be a hoot to attend gospel doctrine with you Del. Many have commented about 3 Nephi 21 and some get it kind of right and most don't because of the term Gentile. When the Lord or Nephi uses it in the BOM it means other nation and as you pointed out it can include anything other than the specific people the author is talking about. This has led to great confusion in this Church because many have said that the members are Gentiles who are adopted into the Church. This is not correct as Jacob 5 points out. The members that are gathered are Ephraim (pure blood) and have been gathered from the gentiles (nonIsraelites). Both are other nations or goyim. The two are not distinguished in the BOM and you have to be careful and understand the context when reading the BOM.

      Now for 3 Nephi 21 - verse 1 tells this chapter is all about the last days. This has nothing to do with the Nephites in the last days because they are all dead. The Lamanites will be gathered in the end by the other nation. Vs 5 again says when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles (Ephraim), unto your seed (Lamanites or Jacob) which shall dwindle in unbelief. The rest is all prophecy about the last days including the Marvelous work and wonder which is still future to our time and not the restoration.

      So good job on defining gentile. I which the CES of other members would figure this one out because it drives me nuts to hear them say we are just a bunch of good non-Israelite gentiles that somehow was adopted into the Church and became Israel. That is not true and in my view is a doctrine of Lucifer. Ira

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  4. I knew I should have taken more time to describe "Nephite" in a future tense (the term was just a generic reference to the future seed of the people being spoken to at the time, that is, those who would follow them in the overall Plan of the Lord of His people. The point I was making which was not meant to contradict your statement, was that the Disciple Nephi, like Isaiah centuries earlier, loved to speak in the "now, past, and future" tense all at the same time. But I'll leave that to a future time since it is a subject that requires much understanding. Anyway, thanks for your comments.

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    1. I thought that is what you meant. There are 4 levels of interpretation/understanding in the scriptures. The literal level, metaphorical, tropological and anagological levels. The idea of the Nephites in the last days is metaphorical of course since they are all dead. I understand where you are coming from. Ira

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