Sunday, January 22, 2017

Where Do We Find Accurate Dates? – Part III

Continuing with Joseph L. Allen’s descriptive information in his book Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon, that poses as Land of Promise discussion but really is meant to solidify his Mesoamerican model.
Based on archaeology of Mesoamerica, what is called the Classic Period is an archaeological label used to denote the quality and quantity of buildings and monuments that were built during a period. Whereas Postclassic is represented by a decline in both quality and quantity of construction. and Preclassic consists of the foundation of settlements before extensive building. It is applied in the Mesoamerica model to the Nephites to suggest their most vigorous building period. According to Allen, “The Classic Period is so named because of both the quality and quantity of buildings and monuments that were built during the time period 200 AD to 900 AD.”
    According to Book of Mormon dates, by the beginning of Mesoamerica Classic Period (200 A.D.), the Nephites were in the last 100 years of their building period.  By just after 300 A.D., they were likely through and within 22 years, were embroiled in wars that would last until they were annihilated in 385 A.D. Thus, we should recap the height of Nephite building and construction to show that their most impressive period was long before that of Mesoamerica.
• This was the period of time just after Nephi  and “those who would go with him” resettled in what they called the Land of Nephi, sometime around 570 B.C., in which Nephi taught his people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance (2 Nephi 5:15).
• Another period of time was around 399 B.C., when  Jarom reported that the Nephites had multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceeding rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron, and copper, and brass and steel (Jarom 1:8).
• Another period was when Mosiah discovered the People of Zarahemla (Mulekites) and
the settlement grew into the nation’s capital with extensive building just after 200 B.C. Around 100 B.C. it is noted the Nephites were spreading all over the land, including moving into the Land Northward during that century to inherit the land, many believe as a result of over-crowding in the area of Zarahemla. “The people began to be very numerous, and began to scatter abroad upon the face of the earth, yea, on the north and on the south, on the east and on the west, building large cities and villages in all quarters of the land (Mosiah 27:6).
About 30 to 50 years later, immigrants began flooding into the Land Northward (Helaman 3:5), and after a time they received building materials from those in the Land Southward, and began building many cities, both of wood and of cement (Helaman 3:11), and the records of the Nephites included their building of ships, and their building of temples, and of synagogues and their sanctuaries (Helaman 3:14). 
    In 34 AD numerous cities were destroyed (3 Nerphi 9:2-10), but were rebuilt over the next 30 years (4 Nephi 1:7), though some of the destroyed cities were sunk into the earth, etc., and could not be rebuilt (4 Nephi 1:9).  By 200 AD, the Nephites were filling up the land once again in such numbers (4 Nephi 1:23) that obviously building was going on to accommodate them. 
    Then, for the first time in over three hundred years, wars broke out between the Nephites and Lamanites once again (Mormon 1:11), and from that time forward, until 385 AD, when the Nephites were entirely wiped out (Mormon 6:15) and not one Nephite was left other than Moroni (Mormon 8:7), there would have been no building going on. And certainly following this period, the Lamanites were embroiled in a bloody civil war that lasted for at least 36 years, and no doubt much longer according to what Moroni wrote, so the idea that the Classic Period of Nephite development being from 200 A.D. to 900 A.D. is absolutely fallacious and cannot be considered—if that was a building period in Mesoamerica, it certainly was not the Nephites of the scriptural record in the Land of Promise given to Lehi.
    Consequently, any Classic period, showing the height of Nephite building quality and quantity would not have continued beyond about 300 A.D., and was begun around 570 B.C., when Nephi showed his people how to build with great workmanship, including a temple to rival Solomon's (2 Nephi 5:15-16).  As a result, while Mesoamerica may show a building peak in the 200 B.C. to 900 A.D. period, the Land of Promise would not. There, on Lehi's Isle of Promise, building began in 570 B.C. and reached its height in the first century B.C. and continued on until sometime after 200 A.D., coming to a complete standstill around 300 to 330 A.D.
    This should show ever Mesoamericanist how archaeology’s pre-determined dating periods do not apply to the Nephite record; however, Allen goes on to say: “Book of  Mormon history occurred throughout the Preclassic Period (2500 BC-200 AD) and during the first half of the Classic Period (200 AD to 900 AD).”
    However, as has been shown, based on Biblical dates, the period from 2500 to about 2100, there would have been no one in the Land of Promise. The Jaredites could not possibly have arrived prior to about 2100, and before that, Moroni tells us “after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof” (Ether 13:2). The first people we know of that the Lord blessed to come to this choice land were the Jaredites. And according to Moses' dates shown above, that means the Jaredites did not arrive much before 2100 B.C. This date is shown by the Biblical time period which the Lord dictated to Moses for his writing in Genesis and the Pearl of Great Price. 
In the 400 years prior to the Jaredite landing, there was no one on the Land of Promise, a land which had been preserved by the Lord for this chosen people (Ether 13:2,8).  Thus, the Jaredites were the first people after the Flood to occupy the Land of Promise, and that started in about 2100 B.C. Then, another people were led here, and the last Jaredite King, Coriantumr, was told by a prophet of the Lord that he would live long enough to see another people inherit the land. These people, the Mulekites, among whom Coriantumr lived the last nine months of his life, arrived in the Land of Promise sometime after 585 B.C.—the last year of Zedekiah’s reign was in 586 B.C. Mulek, his youngest and only surviving son, left Jerusalem at this time and ended up, with those who came with him, in the land of promise. Since it took the Lehi Colony about 10 years before sailing for the Western Hemisphere after leaving Jerusalem, it can safely be assumed that the Mulekites landed in the area of Zarahemla between 585 B.C. and 575 B.C.
    So the Book of Mormon period does not cover very much of Allen's Preclassic period.
In his attempt to lessen the importance of the Biblical dates Moses gives us, Allen states: “The information that is given about the beginning of the Jaredites is associated with the building of the great tower at the time the languages were confounded.  The Bible makes reference to what is undoubtedly the same event, but the date of the Biblical tower is also lacking.”
    First, let's deal with the Flood.  Noah's age is set by following the dates of the birth of each Patriarch and the date of the birth of his son in the Patriarichal Order. Figuring Adam was ejected from the Garden of Eden in 4000 B.C.
• Adam was 130 years old [3870 BC] when Seth was born (Gen 5:3
• Seth was 105 years old [3765 BC] when Enos was born (Gen 5:6)
• Enos was 90 years old [3675 BC] when Cainan was born (Gen 5:9)
• Cainan was 70 years old [3605 BC] when Mahalaleel was born (Gen 5:12)
• Mahalaleel was 65 years old [3540 BC] when Jared was born (Gen 5:15)
• Jared was 162 years old [3378 BC] when Enoch was born (Gen 5:18)
• Enoch was 65 years old [3313 BC] when Methuselah was born (Gen 5:21)
• Methusalah was 187 years old [3126 BC] when Lamech was born (Gen 5:26)
• Lamech was 182 years old [2944 BC] when Noah was born (Gen 5:28-29)
    In this way, we find that Noah was born 1056 years after time began for Adam. Using a 4000 B.C. starting time of life (when Adam was ejected from the Garden of Eden), we find that Noah was born in the year 2944 B.C. Noah was 500 years old when he began the Ark, which would have been 2444, and 600 years old when the rains came (Gen 7:6), which would make it 2344 B.C.
(See the next post, “Where Do We Find Accurate Dates? – Part IV,” for more of Allen’s descriptive information that poses as Book of Mormon discussion but really is meant to solidify his Mesoamerican model)


  1. Del would you be willing to review my Book of Mormon Geography model see links its based on a six sea model.

    waters of ripliancum locations

    Waters of Mormon

    Archeological evidence


  2. Hi David, I took a peek at your site and all it has is the Heartland model for the BOM. Del has thoroughly destroyed your model in his blog. But I have a question for you. I don’t know if you are one of the researchers or not but I assume you are since you have a blog. I asked Del a while back if he knew if those who espoused the Heartland really believed in their model or if they knew it was all fraud, and in it just for the buck. None of the Heartland model can be supported in BOM scripture. I don’t know if you’ve written a book on it or not like Neville and others, but if you have are you in it for the money? Just curious.

    1. Hi iterry, I have been searching for everything I can find on Book of Mormon geography and evidence for the past 3 years and read everything on the internet back past over 2 decades. David's post here is the first time I have become aware of his blog, and have now read everything on it. I am familiar with over a dozen major players involved with the Heartland Model and read all of their blogs and several of their books. Although there appear to be several items of similar information, I doubt that David has had any contact with the publishing Heartlander's. For example David has many times more information about American Indians in his short blogging history (Sep 2016) than all of the Heartlander's combined. There are no comments on any of his blog posts, and there is no hint of any reference to any of the publishing Heartlander's. I think your treatment of David's first contact is a bit harsh.

    2. Perhaps I am a little harsh DeVon, I tried to get Neville to answer a few questions on his blog and couldn't get anywhere. Because the Heartland folks seem to ignore facts and the BOM scriptures concerning the geography my only conclusion is that they are in it for the money.

  3. If you do not use the scriptures The Book of Mormon can take place anywhere such as Africa or Malaysia.

    The scriptures give no indication that there are two hill Cumorahs one in South America and one in New York.

    A problem with your model is that Missouri is not shown in your map.

    8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

  4. I recommend you read the word of Joseph Smith.

    The following are quotes from Joseph Smith (and a few others) that shed much light on the subject. I’ve highlighted in bold the particular parts of these statements that recount geography.


    “The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, all serves to pass away time unnoticed.” (The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1984), p 324 in care of Community of Christ church)

    Zelph Mound

    “During our travels we visited several of the mounds which had been thrown up by the ancient inhabitants of this country-Nephites, Lamanites, etc., and this morning I went up on a high mound, near the river, accompanied by the brethren. From this mound we could overlook the tops of the trees and view the prairie on each side of the river as far as our vision could extend, and the scenery was truly delightful.


    “He told me of a sacred record which was written on plates of gold, I saw in the vision the place where they were deposited, he said the indians were the literal descendants of Abraham…” (Joseph Smith History 1:34 )

    NOTE: Indians refers to the Native Americans all around upstate New York.


    “From this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, and we continued to get the children together every evening, for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the same…. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and their animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.” (History of Joseph Smith by his mother, 1954 edition, pp. 82-83)

  5. part 2


    “Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment.” (The Book of Mormon)


    “ 8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you (Oliver Cowdery) shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them: …..” (D&C 28:8)

    “1) And now concerning my servant Parley P. Pratt…

    2) And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.” (D&C 32:1-2 October 1830)


    “Thus ended our first Indian mission, in which we had preached the Gospel in its fullness and distributed the record of their forefathers among three tribes…. the Cattaraugus Indians, near Buffalo, N.Y.; the Wyandots, of Ohio: and the Delawares, west of Missouri.” (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, p 56-61)

    (NOTE; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints didn’t send missionaries to Central America until 1947. Almost 100 years after this commandment was issued by revelation.)


    “I accordingly went down, and met Keokuk, Kis-Ku-Kosh, Appenoose, and about one hundred chiefs and braves of those tribes (Sac, Fox), with their families.”

    “I conducted them to the meeting grounds in the grove, and instructed them in many things which the Lord had revealed unto me concerning their fathers, and the promises that were made concerning them in the Book of Mormon.” (History of the Church: 4: 401-2 )


    “March 1, 1842.—At the request of Mr. John Wentworth, editor and proprietor of the Chicago Democrat, I have written the following sketch of the rise, progress, persecution, and faith of the Latter-day Saints, of which I have the honor, under God, of being the founder. ….all that I shall ask at his hands is that he publish the account entire, ungarnished, and without misrepresentation.”

    (Note: this letter is one of the most important letters written by Joseph Smith because from it we get many details from the first vision, meetings with Moroni and this is also where the articles of faith originate.)

    “I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country, and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people was made known unto me: I was also told where there was deposited some plates on which were engraven an abridgement [abridgment] of the records of the ancient prophets that had existed on this continent….

    The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country. This book also tells us that our Saviour [Savior] made his appearance upon this continent after his resurrection, that he planted the gospel here in all its fulness [fullness], and richness, and power, and blessing; that they had apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists; the same order, the same priesthood, the same ordinances, gifts, powers, and blessing, as was enjoyed on the eastern continent, that the people were cut off in consequence of their transgressions… “(History of the Church 1: 301)


    “The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians… By it, we learn that our western tribes of Indians, are descendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them.

    NOTE: At the time, anything west of the Alegehny and appalacian mountains was part of the West.

    NOTE: For those who claim that Joseph Smith was merely stating his opinion, his follow up letter clearly refutes that. After his first letter was not published in its entirety Joseph Smith sent a second follow up letter to N. E. Seaton, Rochester. In it he states:

    “Dear sir,

    I was somewhat disappointed on the receiving my paper with only a part of my letter inserted in it. The letter which I wrote you for publication I wrote by the commandment of God. ” (History of the Church 1: 326)


    On the top of the mound were stones which presented the appearance of three altars having been erected one above the other, according to the ancient order; and the remains of bones were strewn over the surface of the ground. The brethren procured a shovel and a hoe, and removing the earth to the depth of about one foot, discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire, and between his ribs the stone point of a Lamanitish arrow, which evidently produced his death. Elder Burr Riggs retained the arrow. The contemplation of the scenery around us produced peculiar sensations in our bosoms; and subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thick-set man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky mountains. The curse was taken from Zelph, or, at least, in part-one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before his death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites.” (History of the Church Vol. 2: 79-80, June 3, 1834, 1948 edition)

    NOTE: The “Zelph” mound was excavated recently and carbon dated to 385 AD.


    3 Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it. (D&C 125:3)


    “1PM held council with the Indians Sac & Fox in my back kitchen. I replied….Great Spirit wants you to be united and live in peace. (I) found a book, (presenting the Book of Mormon) which told me about your fathers and Great Spirit told me you must send to all the tribes you can, and tell them to live in peace, and when any of our people come to see you treat them as we treat you.” (Joseph Smith Diary entry, Thursday, May 23rd, 1844)

    These statements from Joseph Smith clearly state where the Nephite lands are. Not only what continent, but what Country, and even which states within the United States are Nephite Lands along with specific tribes who are Lamanite descendants. Joseph even digs up the grave of a fallen rightous Lamanite warrior and receives revelation about his name, when and how he died. And if that isn’t enough the Lord reveals to Joseph Smith the location of Zarahemla, the capital of the Nephite nation, in the Doctrine and Covenants. Can it be any clearer or more specific? Hardly.
    From Nephite explorer

    1. Do you have a source for the AD 385 carbon date?

  8. Native Americans have plenty of ties to the Book of Mormon. I don't know of any for south American Tribes.

    Native American ties to the Book of Mormon

    Native American ties to the Book of Mormon, either through legend or culture.


    An Ojibwa Indian Chief named Keeshkemun, who succeeded his father to be chief, is mentioned in Warren’s book, Ojibwa History. Keeshkemun sounds strikingly similar to Kishkumen the Gadianton leader and one of the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon. In fact if you google Keeshkemun, Kishkumen will come up. Besides Isrealis Ojibwa Indians have the highest concentration of haplogroup X DNA.


    The Book of Mormon in Alma 47:5 states that disaffected Lamanites gathered at a hill called Onidah
    There is Native American Tribe in New York called Onieda phonetically exactly the same as Onidah


    In May and June 1834 Joseph Smith led a Mormon group (a paramilitary expedition known as Zion’s Camp) on a march from Kirtland, Ohio to Jackson County, Missouri. On June 3, while passing through west-central Illinois near Griggsville, some bones were unearthed from a mound. These bones were identified by Smith. He had vision as to who the bones belonged to.

    “At about one foot deep we discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire; and between two of his ribs we found an Indian arrow, which had evidently been the cause of his death. Subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains.”

    The Prophet Onandagus is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, but has obvious ties to the Onondaga Tribe whose traditional lands are in the state of New York.

    Native American Council Tower

    Mosiah 2:7

    7 For the multitude being so great that king Benjamin could not teach them all within the walls of the temple, therefore he caused a tower to be erected, that thereby his people might hear the words which he should speak unto them.

    “Professor Carr of its once having supported a building similar to the council-house observed by Bartram on a mound at the old Cherokee town Cowe. Both were built on mounds, both were circular, both were built on posts set in the ground at equal distances from each other, and each had a central pillar. As tending to confirm this statement of Bartram’s, the following passage may be quoted, where, speaking of Colonel Christian’s march against the Cherokee towns in 1770, Eamsey says that this officer found in the center of each town ”a circular tower rudely built and covered with dirt, 30 feet in diameter, and about 20 feet high. This tower was used as a council-house… Mr. M. C. Bead, of Hudson, Ohio, discovered similar evidences in a mound near Chattanooga, and Mr. Gerard Fowke has quite recently found the same thing in a mound at Waverly, Ohio.”
    (Thomas 1889 pg. 32)

  9. The Saying Bury the Hatchet

    The Book of Mormon tells the history of the Anti-Nephi’s, a Lamanite people who no longer wanted to fight or kill other people. They made this covenant to God to longer fight by burying their weapons in the ground, never to use them again even in the case of self-defense for themselves or for their family.

    The saying bury the hatchet comes from the Algonquin Indians of the Great Lakes area who also made peace by burying their weapons of war. As mentioned before, I think the Hopewell Indians are the best candidate to be the Nephites for numerous reasons - this is one of them.

    The first mention of the practice in English is to an actual hatchet-burying ceremony.

    Years before he gained notoriety for presiding over the Salem witch trials, Samuel Sewall wrote in 1680, “I write to you in one [letter] of the Mischief the Mohawks did; which occasioned Major Pynchon’s going to Albany, where meeting with the Sachem the[y] came to an agreement and buried two Axes in the Ground; one for English another for themselves; which ceremony to them is more significant & binding than all Articles of Peace[,] the hatchet being a principal weapon with them.”
    (South Carolina and the Cherokee Nation 1785)

    Treaty of Hopewell 1785, Keowee, South Carolina: signed by Col. Benjamin Hawkins, Gen. Andrew Pickens and Headman McIntosh, establishing the boundary of the Cherokee Nation. Use of the phrase ‘Bury the Hatchet: “ARTICLE 13. The hatchet shall be forever buried, and the peace given by the United States, and friendship re-established between the said states on the one part, and all the Cherokees on the other, shall be universal; and the contracting parties shall use their utmost endeavors to maintain the peace given as aforesaid, and friendship re-established.”

    Native American Idioms and Phraseology

    Native American idioms and phraseology, as described by early settlers, are consistent with the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon. Below are some examples of Native American idioms consistent with scripture. Examples are from John Heckewelder’s Manners and Customs of The Indian Nations Who Once Inhabited Pennsylvania and the Neighboring States.

    Native American saying: “I will place you under my wings!”

    Meaning: I will protect you at all hazards! You shall be perfectly safe, nobody shall molest you!

    Scripture: 3 Nephi 10:6 O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.
    (Heckewelder pg. 139)

    Native American saying: ”To bury deep in the earth” (an injury done)

    Meaning: To consign it to oblivion.

    Scripture: 2 Nephi 26:5 And they that kill the prophets, and the saints, the depths of the earth shall swallow them up, saith the Lord of Hosts; and mountains shall cover them.
    (Heckewelder pg. 140)

    Native American saying: “You have spoken with your lips only, not from the heart!”

    Meaning: You endeavor to deceive me; you do not intend to do as you say!

    Scripture: 2 Nephi 27:25 Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men.
    (Heckewelder pg. 139)

    Native American saying: “draw the thorns out of your feet and legs, grease your Stiffened joints with oil, and wipe the sweat off your body.”

    Meaning: I make you feel comfortable after your fatiguing journey, that you may enjoy yourself while with us.

    Hebrew Custom: The washing of feet is a Hebrew custom. It was the first item done when entering a house or tent. The host would provide the water and the guest would wash his own feet. If the host was wealthy, a slave would wash the feet.

    Anointing of oil was used by Jews to refresh and invigorate the body. This custom is still done today by Arabians. In the example there are some similarities in the cleaning of feet and legs from thorns and the anointing of oil or grease to refresh the body.
    (Heckewelder pg. 139)