Thursday, January 26, 2017

Where Do We Find Accurate Dates? – Part VII

Continuing with Joseph L. Allen’s descriptive information in his book Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon, that poses as Land of Promise discussion but really is meant to solidify his Mesoamerican model.
Still hammering away at dates, that confuse any issue, Joseph L. Allen states: “The date of the arrival of the Jaredites is based upon 1) the dating of the great tower (Tower of Babel) and 2) the archaeological and traditional evidence coming out of Mesoamerica in relationship to the first settlers. According to Ixtlilxochitl we learn that 416 years elapsed from the time of the flood until the confusion of Babel and the first settlers arrived in Mesoamerica 520 years later.”
    If we are going to accept the Lord's dates as Moses wrote them down in two documents which testify of each other, then Ixtlilxochitl's dates tell us that the confusion of Babel occurred in 1927 B.C., and the Jaredites landed in the Land of Promise in 1823 B.C.  These dates are close, but off from those submitted earlier, i.e., that the Jaredites landed around 2100 B.C., which would have been mid-way through the period of Peleg’s life, in whose time the “earth was divided,” thus leading to the building of the Great Tower, confusion of tongues, and exodus of the Jaredites. The dates that Allen uses simply do not match the time frame of the events we know took place around the same time as when the Jaredites would have left Mesopotamia, and arrived a few years later in the Land of Promise.
    Continuing with Allen: “Traditional statements place the dating of the Jaredites at about 2200 BC.  However, since no dates appear in the Book of Mormon regarding the arrival date of the Jaredites, we are left to choose between the archaeological dates of the Old World and the Spanish Chronicle dates of the New World.”
    Not so.  We are left to choose from the Biblical dates, which place the arrival of the Jaredites sometime around 2100 B.C., give or take a 100  years (2200 B.C. to 2000 B.C.)  Having to choose from other sources that are not scripture, and rate them over scripture is foolhardy.  The Lord knew what he was talking about when he dictated the history of the world so Moses could write it down.
    Continuing again with Allen: “Ixtlilxochitl said that the first settlers, who came from the great tower at the time of the confusion of languages, wandered for 104 years before they settled.”

If this is true, then the Jaredites wandered for 104 years between their original home (Mesopotamia) and the Great Sea that divided the land.  This would place the landing date of the Jaredites pretty close to 2100 B.C. as outlined elsewhere in this work.
    Again quoting Allen: “If the Jaredites arrived in Mesoamerica around 2700 BC then by 2500 BC we can expect to see the beginnings of legitimate civilization centers.  Early settlement patterns along the Gulf of Mexico and Oaxaca support that expectation.” 
This is the reason Allen is so bent on ignoring the dates the Lord dictated to Moses, for those dates (flood in 2344 B.C. and Jaredite arrival around 2100 B.C.) do not fit in with his Mesoamerican model. Now, if the Lord is correct, and Moses wrote down what he was told (has there ever been a prophet that did not?), then the Jaredites indeed reached the Land of Promise around 2100 B.C.  So who was settling in Mesoamerica around 2700 to 2500 B.C? Certainly not the Jaredites. In fact, both those dates fall before the Flood, according to Moses dates he received from the Lord.
    Allen: “The archaeological sites of San Lorenzo, La Venta, and Tres Zapotes in Veracruz, Mexico, tell the story of the classical period of the Olmecs. This period lasted roughly until 600 B.C. when their civilization began to decline. 
    Using Allen's dates, he is stating about a 300-year period of decline for the Jaredites (600 BC to 300 BC).  However, Ether makes it very clear that the decline of the Jaredites from success to annihilation took only one generation—during the lifetime of a single king—Coriantumr.  And it would be hard to say that the Jaredite civilization declined toward the end. They were heavily involved in war for the last 50 to 100 years of their existence, a war which saw millions die, a war which killed women and children, a war whichaccording to Ether, who was an eye-witnesstook the life of every Jaredite except himself and Coriantumr, all within a few years.  A civilization that numbered in the millions wiped out in a very short time frame, hardly agrees with Allen's decline of the Olmecs.
    Allen: “By conducting a generation count in the Book of Ether, we are justified in saying that events stated in Chapter 5 correspond to the early part of the above date, probably in the 1300—1200 BC time period.” 
Insisting on using Ixtlilxochitl’s erroneous dates that the Jaredites landed before the Flood in 2700 B.C., using the 30 generations of 50 years per generation, the entire Jaredite time frame would have covered only 1,500 years. 1,500 years from 2700 B.C., brings us to 1200 B.C.  That means the Jaredites were wiped out around 1200 B.C.  Since this is hardly possible (Coriantumr would have had to live another 650 years after the final, great battle), it seems using a generation count does not seem to verify Allen's premise.  
    There are 30 generations mentioned from Jared to Ether (Ether 1:6-32). In this account, there are three generations, Ether (Ether 1:6), Aaron (Ether 1:16) and Morianton (Ether 1:23) that are listed as a descendant rather than a son; however, two of these, Ether (Ether 11:23) and Aaron (Ether 10:31) are listed as sons and not descendants later in the record. This leaves only one generation gap and that is of Morianton who was listed as a descendant of Riplakish both early and later in the record (Ether 10:9).  
    However, it might be assumed that Morianton was Riplakish's son, since Either was quite specific about naming every generation, and two of the three descendants in that geneaology turned out to be sons anyway. Thus, we can use the 30 generations Allen uses.  
    Now, doing a little arithmetic, Lib was the 16th generation from Jared, and it is his day that Allen considers was probably in the 1300-1200 B.C. time period. So, taking 2700 B.C. as a start date (however, Jared was married and had some of his family by this time), for Lib to live in 1300 B.C., 1,400 years would have had to pass.  That makes each generation averaging 87 ½ years, a figure that is way out of line even in that era. If Lib lived in 1200 B.C., then each generation would have averaged 93 ¾ years, an even more improbable figure. Taking this further, 30 generations between 2700 B.C. to 300 B.C. as Allen suggests, would average out to 80 years per generation. Taking Allen's premise further, if 16 generations lived from 2700 B.C. to 1300 B.C. averaging 87 ½ years, then the next 14 generations, living from 1300 B.C. to 300 B.C., would have averaged about 71 ½ years. Few arguments can be found to support such long generational periods. Today, we consider a 20 year or 25 year generation.  However, if the Jaredites landed in 2100 B.C., which Biblical dates seem to justify, then 16 generations later, averaging 50 years per generation, we arrive at 1300 B.C.  And in using 2100 BC to 600 B.C., 30 generations would also average 50 years per generation, a far more reasonable generation time frame in the era being discussed.
    Allen: “In 1 Nephi 1:4, we are informed that Lehi lived in Jerusalem when Zedekiah was placed on the throne as king of Juldah. 
The scriptures does not tell us that Lehi lived in Jerusalem. The actual scripture quoted states:  "For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days)..."  (1 Nephi 1:4). While Allen might not find much difference between the word in and at, Noah Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English language shows that in Jerusalem would mean inside the walled city, while at Jerusalem would mean living out in the nearby or surrounding countryside. This difference has led to the possible understanding of Lehi's occupation which Nibley and the Hiltons have so effectively expanded upon. But regardless of the discussion on Lehi's occupation, the misuse of a word that determines meaning when quoting a scripture is a sign of sloppy research and writing and poor scholarship!
    It seems amazing that a scholar of Allen’s reputation, who has a company that takes members and people on guided tours of the so-called Mesoamerican Land of Promise, is going to be so far off on the very dates he discusses, writes about, and covers in his tours. One would think that it would be important to get the dates correct.
(See the next post, “Where Do We Find Accurate Dates? – Part VII,” for more of Allen’s descriptive information that poses as Book of Mormon discussion but really is meant to solidify his Mesoamerican model)

56 comments:

  1. I don’t know if you are going to discuss this or maybe you have and I missed it but supporting your analysis that the Jaredites came during the days of Peleg is found in Genesis. I found a little article a while back that identified who Jared was of the book of Ether. Gen 10:21-32 gives the complete list of the sons of Shem. In that list we read that Eber had two sons, Peleg and Joktan. Joktan had thirteen sons the fourth of whom was Jerah. He was the nephew of Peleg, the brother of Joktan, and the next generation following the division of the land.

    The spelling of this name varies in ancient writings. In Genesis his name is Jerah and Jerach in Hebrew. In the Alexandrine Codex which contains the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the name Jerah is translated as Jarad or Jared, since the vowels are not present. There are other translations that render the name Jarad or Jared. There are other variants in other manuscripts but however it is spelled, Jared of the book of Ether is the same Jerah of Genesis 10, the son of Joktan and grandson of Eber. He is therefore, a Hebrew, because the name came from Eber and the descendants of Eber were therefore called Hebrews. He descends though the same royal lineage as Abraham until they split at the two sons of Eber. Ether then gives us the lineage of Jared down to himself.

    Jared was the fourth son of Joktan but head of his own family, and his people consisting of other families including his brother and his family and friends. Joktan had 13 sons who are named in the Bible; Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, Obal, Abimael, Sheba, Ophir, Havilah and Jobab.

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    1. Interesting information, Ira. Now, which one of those other 12 brothers is "The Brother of Jared?" If you argue that Jerah is Jared because of language-induced spelling variations, which of those twelves is a reasonable spelling variant for Mahonri Moriancumr?

      Also, what do we know of those other brothers? Seems likely some of them would have made the journey as well, right ("family and friends")?

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    2. I believe in Del's second book, he points this out. He says that it is a possibility that Ophir is the Brother of Jared. One item that might point to this is that there is a harbor known anciently as Ophir. Ophir may have had his name changed when he talked to God, as many ancient prophets did. There is a question on how such a name would be passed down after the Jaredites left though.

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  2. I took a small look at your critique of the Hill Cumorah you make a lot of assumptions that are just plain incorrect.
    One of the glaring mistakes you made is saying that Cumorah is North of Desolation that is incorrect.
    ""3. The Land of Cumorah was in the Land of Many Waters
    4. The Land of Many Waters was beyond or north of the Land of Desolation""


    Before the Nephites go to Cumorah they are in the Land Desolation the place of their retreat. To go to Cumorah that was controlled by the Lamanites south of Desolation Moroni has to ask permission of the Lamanite king to enter Cumorah. The Lamanites (Land Cumorah) are south of the Nephites.
    Mormon 6
    2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

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  3. This statement is also incorrect.

    " 7. The hill would have to be quite some distance north of the narrow neck of land, beyond the Land of Desolation, within an area called the Land of Cumorah, “so far northward"

    Once again Cumorah is in the south controlled by Lamanites.

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  5. To show that the Nephites are in Desolation see Mormon 3:5

    5 And it came to pass that I did cause my people that they should gather themselves together at the land Desolation, to a city which was in the borders, by the narrow pass which led into the land southward.

    The Nephites had to pass through the narrow pass to get to the lamanite controlled land of Cumorah at that time.

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    1. In my entire life I have never seen a non-geographical Book of Mormon map that did not put Cumorah in the North.

      http://www.mormonhaven.com/bomgeog.htm

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    2. erichard - I agree. A quick check of the BOM geography clearly puts the hill on the other side of the narrow neck. The Jaredites lived North of the narrow neck and that is where the hill Ramah/Cumorah was located. The reason David has it wrong is because his land of many waters doesn't work. His Cumorah is South of the narrow neck which isn't correct. The idea that the lakes are seas is absurd. Why didn't any of the Nephites/Lamantes ever go around the lakes and fight on the west side of the west sea? Or fight on the east side of the east sea. His map is absurd!!! I'm a geologist and can see that they don't make any sense at all.

      But back to the BOM. Mormon 2:3 clearly states that they were driven into the North countries and so David's map is clearly incorrect right from the outset. Cumorah was far to the north and in fact they were not able to retreat much farther to the North without running into the high Cordillera Oriental and Occidental. That isn't true of the North American Cumorah. There is absolutely no reason to have a battle there. It isn't strategic at all which Mormon tells us it was. Del's book lays it all out quite nicely. Also The Book and the Map by Venice Priddis is a quick read too about this. But I agree with you completely and David is simply trying to pound a round peg in a square hole to make it work.

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  7. It may not make sense to you but its make complete sense from where Nephi is from.

    Land locked lakes are called seas in Israel. Example SEA of Galilee and the Red SEA.

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  8. Cumorah is not far north of Desolation. Cumorah was not controlled by the Nephites it was controlled by the Lamanites. That's why Mormon has to ask permission to enter the land Cumorah. You are ignoring the scriptures

    Mormon 6
    2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

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  9. •Doctrine and Covenants 128:20

    20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from CUMORAH! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of FAYETTE, SENECA county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the SUSQHENNA, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!

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  10. The above verse makes it sounds like Cumorah is where the churches only Hill Cumorah visitor center is.

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  11. You are also ignoring another verse.

    •Doctrine and Covenants 54:8

    8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

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  13. All the Book of Mormon Maps get Cumorah wrong except one. The six Sea model.

    Mormon makes it clear that Cumorah was controlled by Lamanites when he asked permission for him and his people to enter Cumorah.

    Mormon 6
    2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that HE WOULD GRANT UNTO US that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah...

    Del isn't the only one who makes this error.

    There is another grievous error that del and everyone else makes.

    See the six sea model

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  14. @David McKane:

    6 And it came to pass
    that I, being eleven years old,
    was carried by my father
    into the land southward,
    even to the land of Zarahemla.
    Mormon 1:6

    10 And it came to pass
    that the war began
    to be among them
    in the borders of Zarahemla,
    by the waters of Sidon.
    Mormon 1:10

    3 And it came to pass
    that in the three hundred and twenty and seventh year
    the Lamanites did come upon us
    with exceedingly great power,
    insomuch that they did frighten my armies;
    therefore they would not fight,
    and they began to retreat
    towards the NORTH countries.
    Mormon 2:3

    29 And the Lamanites did give unto us
    the land northward,
    yea, even to the narrow passage
    which led into the land southward.
    And we did give unto the Lamanites
    all the land southward.
    Mormon 2:29

    This clearly states that the Nephites had the land north of the narrow pass.. and the Lamanites had the land Southward.

    4 And it came to pass
    that after this tenth year had passed away,
    making, in the whole,
    three hundred and sixty years
    from the coming of Christ,
    the king of the Lamanites sent an epistle unto me,
    which gave unto me to know
    that they were preparing to come again
    to battle against us.

    5 And it came to pass
    that I did cause my people
    that they should gather themselves
    together at the land Desolation,
    to a city which was in the borders,
    by the narrow pass
    which led into the land southward.


    6 And there we did place our armies,
    that we might stop the armies
    of the Lamanites,
    that they might not
    get possession of any of our lands;
    therefore we did fortify against them
    with all our force.
    Mormon 3:4-6

    It is obvious that the Lamanites are coming from the South to do battle.. as the land of Desolation is in the land north of the narrow pass.

    32 And now,
    it was only the distance
    of a day and a half’s journey
    for a Nephite,
    on the line Bountiful
    and the land Desolation,
    from the east to the west sea;
    and thus the land of Nephi
    and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water,
    there being a small neck of land
    between the land northward
    and the land southward.
    Alma 22:32

    You might want to rethink your position. The scriptures are quite clear.

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    1. These verses do nothing to disprove Mormon 6:2 showing the Nephites went to the Lamanites in the south country. When the Nephites retreat the Lamanites took control of the south countries. You quote this verse.

      "they began to retreat
      towards the NORTH countries."

      The Nephites occupied south countries and north countries not until that verse did they loose control of all the south countries.

      Mormon 6
      2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that HE WOULD GRANT UNTO US that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah...

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    2. Cumorah is in the south Country

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  15. Desolation is in the North Countries by the Narrow PASS.

    Cumorah is in the South Country at the time of the last battles it was controlled by the Lamanites.

    The Nephites went to the Lamanites no the other way around

    Mormon 6
    2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that HE WOULD GRANT UNTO US that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah...

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  16. •Mormon 3:5

    5 And it came to pass that I did cause my people that they should gather themselves together at the land Desolation, to a city which was in the borders, by the narrow pass which led into the land southward.

    The Nephites were right next to the south country and the narrow pass.

    The went to the Lamanites via the narrow pass

    Mormon 6
    2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that HE WOULD GRANT UNTO US that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah...

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  17. David. If you are right, you are the first person since 1830 that figured this out!

    Everyone else assumed that Cumorah had to be in the land North of the narrow neck because it was also the final battle place of the Jaredites who never lived in the land South.

    Your conclusion that the phrase, "he would grant unto us" implies that Cumorah was in Lamanite hands is not certain, as much as you desire it to be.

    More likely it simply meant Mormon was asking for a cessation of battle until he could gather to Cumorah with all his people.

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    1. And even if Cumorah was in Lamanite hands, that does not mean Cumorah was South of the narrow neck.

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  18. Some Jaredites did live in the land southward and the land southward was a major hunting area for the Jaredites. But the north countries were the most populated areas for the jaredites. The jaredite record FULLY SUPPORTS the record of the Nephites showing that Cumorah is in the SOUTH countries. see versus

    •Ether 9:32

    32 And it came to pass that there were many of them which did perish by the way; nevertheless, THERE WERE SOME which fled into the LAND SOUTHWARD.

    •Ether 10:21

    21 And they did preserve the LAND SOUTHWARD for a wilderness, to get game...

    •Ether 15:10-11

    The Jaredites are in there last battles after they retreat SOUTH were do they end up. Cumorah where Mormon hid up the records and where the Nephites last battles took place Cuorah being in the south countries.

    10 And it came to pass that the armies of Coriantumr did press upon the armies of Shiz that they beat them, that they caused them to FLEE before them; and they did FLEE SOUTHWARD, and did pitch their tents in a place which was called Ogath.

    11 And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.

    Sidenote

    The Jaredit record kills the idea that Jaredites were in South America. The jaredites mention Elephants there are no such records for elephants being in South or central America. The opposite is true for North America.

    •Ether 9:19

    19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.

    Tapirs are not horses

    http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/11/buried-nephite-city-and-bom-elephants.html

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  19. I wish there was a way to edit the post I misspelled Cumorah

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    1. Doesn't work David, They had Elephants in South America during this period of time. This has been reported so again your theory fails because fossil bones have been found.

      The last battles were in the far north because that is where the Nephites retreated to (THE NORTH) as eRichard pointed out. Yes A FEW (SOME) went south but not many. And they likely returned to participate in the last battles at Ramah.

      But what are your cureloms and cumoms in North America? Del has discovered that these are the Apacha and Lamah. What animal fits these in North America. Answer - There aren't any and so again your theory fails. But here again and you still haven't answered the question as to how could the Jaredites could live north of the narrow neck? Your narrow neck is between the Great Lakes? You even admitted that it is cold and sparsely populated. Millions of Jaredites COULD NOT LIVE in Canada back then and so that is why your theory fails so completely.

      I believe in Noah's flood and the BOM says there was a Noah's flood. It's in the Bible. The great ice age happened after Noah's flood not before. The entire area down through the North American Cumorah was covered in ice until about 1,000bc or about 1,000 years after the flood. So nothing that you have said here makes any sense at all. Your theory is entirely fiction and if you would stop and think about it you would discover the many contradictions. South America on the other hand fits completely and move evidence is coming our way for it all the time.

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    2. Apacha and lamas are not horses

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  20. I think you are making stuff up a great jaredite city is next to the narrow neck of land that divides the south from the north.
    Ether 10
    20 And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land.

    It's clear the jaredites were on the border between the land northward and southward.

    The term far northward is not used in the Book of Mormon.

    The hill Cumorah was not covered in ice during the time of the Book of Mormon.

    South America having elephants dating to the time of the Book of Mormon is nonexistent.

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  21. If the Jaredites were " far northward " as you say. Show me in scripture instead of unfounded statements.

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  22. David where is that city near your narrow neck by Niagra falls? There isn't any and the scriptures are clear that they lived North of the narrow neck and you quoted them so you are aware of them even though you ignore them. And yes the area was under ice at 2000bc. Unless of course you don't believe in Noah's flood. Go to ICR.org for a discussion on the iceage and when it occurred.

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  23. David where is that city near your narrow neck by Niagra falls? There isn't any and the scriptures are clear that they lived North of the narrow neck and you quoted them so you are aware of them even though you ignore them. And yes the area was under ice at 2000bc. Unless of course you don't believe in Noah's flood. Go to ICR.org for a discussion on the iceage and when it occurred.

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    1. Okay - here are two scriptures David that should slam the door shut on the Heartland model. Ether 10:20 And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the SEA DIVIDES THE LAND.

      Okay David this is a SOUTHERN MOST CITY. Why? because the next verse says this

      vs 21 And they did preserve the land SOUTHWARD for a wilderness, to get game. And the whole face of the land NORTHWARD was covered with inhabitants.

      Therefore David the Jaredites lived NORTH of your narrow neck of land not south. This is very clear. Look at verse one of Ether 1.

      Ether 1:1 and now I, Moroni, proceed to give an account of those ancient inhabitants who were destroyed by the hand of the Lord UPON THE FACE OF THIS NORTH COUNTRY.

      David - what North Country? It says what that NORTH country is in chapter 10. It is NORTH of the NARROW NECK. This is all very clear. So your inhabitants the Jaredites had to live NORTH of Niagara FAlls. Again - Why wasn't the falls mentioned and HOW could they live there because the Ice Age was raging at 2000BC as the Christians point out in ICR.org. These are not unfounded statements. They are supported by facts and scriptures. It is true that BYU does not believe in Noah's flood and the Ice age coming later. They believe that because the world accepts old age earth garbage and their grads need to find of job. They also accept evolution which I reject as well.

      How did the Jaredites get to the land North of Niagara falls?

      These questions and scriptures destroy the Heartland model. How can you ignore Ether 1 and Ether 10? I don't get it. This is so clear that I don't understand how anybody could be so ignorant.

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  24. Some Jaredites lived in the land southward they went back and forth between the land southward. The Great Jaredite city was on the border between the land Southward and Northward.
    The Jaredite arrived to Lake Ontario via the ST Lawrence seaway.
    The land northward had migrating land mammals South America has no migrating land mammals Alma 22:31
    “it being the wilderness which is
    filled with all manner of wild animals
    of every kind, a part of which
    had come from the land northward
    for food.”

    The jaredites fed on the dead migrating land mammals during famine they would follow their course of travel.
    Ether 9
    And it came to pass that the
    people did follow the course of the
    beasts, and did devour the carcasses
    of them which fell by the way, until
    they had devoured them all.

    Mosiah 18:4
    borders of the
    land having been infested, by times
    or at seasons, by wild beasts.

    North America has migrating Buffalo south America has no migrating land mammals.

    North America has horses and cattle South America nope.

    North America has a civilization that made metal breastplates during the time of the BOM south America nope.

    The Book of Mormon mentions tornadoes. North America has tornado alley the place that del mentions nope.
    16 And there were some who were
    carried away in the whirlwind; and
    whither they went no man knoweth,
    save they know that they were carried
    away.

    Scripture states that borders of the Lamanites is in Missouri D&C54:8 4000 miles away from where Chile.

    The Hill cumorah visitor center is 4000 miles away from where del says.

    Joseph Smith stated that the lamanite land along with scripture is in North America.
    LETTER PENNED BY JOSEPH SMITH TO EMMA DURRING ZION’S CAMP MARCH WHICH TRAVELED FROM EASTERN OHIO THROUGH ILLINOIS TO MISOURI. JUNE 4, 1834.
    “The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, all serves to pass away time unnoticed.” (The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1984), p 324 in care of Community of Christ church)
    ONE MONTH BEFORE JOSEPH’S MARTYRDOM HE TAUGHT THE LAMANITES. MAY 23, 1844
    “1PM held council with the Indians Sac & Fox in my back kitchen. I replied….Great Spirit wants you to be united and live in peace. (I) found a book, (presenting the Book of Mormon) which told me about your fathers and Great Spirit told me you must send to all the tribes you can, and tell them to live in peace, and when any of our people come to see you treat them as we treat you.” (Joseph Smith Diary entry, Thursday, May 23rd, 1844)

    There is not one scientific research paper that says that New York state was covered in ice between 400AD and 600BC.

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    1. This is complete nonsense David. You are ignoring the scriptures completely. I quoted the scriptures that tell you they were NORTH of your narrow neck PERIOD. It can't be any other way PERIOD. So don't tell me a few went south. The vast majority DID NOT GO SOUTH PERIOD. It says in Ether that they lived in the land Northward PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      You don't understand that the area was covered in Ice. There are plenty of papers put out the the Christians institute of Creation Research that support the idea of an Ice age at 2000-1000BC. You obviously do not believe in Noah's flood. That is a great failing of the LDS Church because many people do not believe this. That is the only way and the reason you don't believe in the ice age. I've studied both as a professional geologist and the literature on this subject. Carbon dating and other methods are not correct.

      But here again you still aren't understanding but are admitting that they came over the St. Lawerence River. That was impossible as well. 8 barges came over the St. Lawrence River? Are you kidding me!! Where are the winds and currents that take them up an impassable river? The River didn't even exist at 2000bc because it too was under ice.

      As for Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery there is where you go wrong as well. Yes Oliver believed they lived here. He was wrong!!! Joseph was quite interested in the recent discoveries in Meso-America. They were too busy being chased around by mobs to get into this. The only revelation on this is found in the works of FG Williams. How come you don't accept that revelation? Del just wrote a wonderful article about that.


      Look - until you can prove to me that the could survive in the millions NORTH of Niagara Falls your model is complete nonsense. The scriptures destroy your argument completely. So until you address these failings I completely reject your model as garbage.

      Delete
    2. Your the one ignoring the scriptures

      •Doctrine and Covenants 54:8

      8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

      Delete
    3. You are continuing to ignore ETHER - Read it. Jaredites lived NORTH of Niagara. It destroys your model because you can't have 3 million living up there. No evidence and it's too cold even NOW. The Lamantes MIGRATED after 400ad. This does NOTHING for your model. Sorry - it's complete garbage.

      Delete
  25. Cir is not reputable. Saying the earth is 6000 years old makes no sense. Even the churches new temple videos gives the impression the earth is millions of years old. So do dinosaur fossils and sea shell fossils found at the bottom of the walls of the grand canyon.

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    Replies
    1. You don't understand the creation and you do not believe the bible nor the BOM that says in Ether that AFTER the water drained off it became the land of promise. This was the flood. I've studied this and the fossils were deposited by Noah's flood. There were no animals of any kind before Adam. You find in the PofGP that Adam was the 1st man and the 1st flesh on earth. There was nothing before Adam. This again is a great failing of the Church because many do not believe in the scriptures and that's sad. You've confirmed that.

      Delete
  26. Interesting verse by a Jaredite prophet

    Ether 13
    4 Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.

    Are you saying the New Jerusalem is in Chile.

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    Replies
    1. No - I'm saying that the New Jerusalem is in the land of Promise which includes NORTH and SOUTH AMERICA. You are still ignoring Ether.

      Delete
    2. Once again including Chile as the promise land is opinion.



      I see no scriptural reference that includes chile as being the land of promise or the place of new Jerusalem.
      Nor would South America fit the description


      You do not believe d&c is scripture. D&C 54:8 Missouri is a border of the Lamanites not south America.



      According revelation when specifically assigned to teach to the lamanites there were not sent to south or Central America



      “Thus ended our first Indian mission, in which we had preached the Gospel in its fullness and distributed the record of their forefathers among three tribes…. the Cattaraugus Indians, near Buffalo, N.Y.; the Wyandots, of Ohio: and the Delawares, west of Missouri.” (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, p 56-61)



      (NOTE; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints didn’t send missionaries to Central America until 1947. Almost 100 years after this commandment was issued by revelation.)

      Delete
  27. You still don't understand that the migration pattern in the Americas was from South to North. That does not mean they lived in that one spot for 2600 years. My DNA says i'm from Holland and Germany. Well I've never even been there. So your argument fails. North America does not fit the bom description in any possible way. It would be like me saying the great salt lake is the sea West and pineview dam the sea East and the narrow neck at the point of the mountain. A strong wind blew the Jaredites into the great salt lake. Your descriptions are just as absurd.

    ReplyDelete
  28. You still don't understand that the migration pattern in the Americas was from South to North. That does not mean they lived in that one spot for 2600 years. My DNA says i'm from Holland and Germany. Well I've never even been there. So your argument fails. North America does not fit the bom description in any possible way. It would be like me saying the great salt lake is the sea West and pineview dam the sea East and the narrow neck at the point of the mountain. A strong wind blew the Jaredites into the great salt lake. Your descriptions are just as absurd.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Your argument is pointless the lamanites did not migrate north. The nephites migrated north until there were wiped out. If you believe that there is a second hill cumorah in chile where lamanites wiped out the Nephites then the lamanites where not in New York State 4000 miles away

    The scriptures don't agree with you neither does Joseph Smith

    D&c 54
    8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

    LETTER PENNED BY JOSEPH SMITH TO EMMA DURRING ZION’S CAMP MARCH WHICH TRAVELED FROM EASTERN OHIO THROUGH ILLINOIS TO MISOURI. JUNE 4, 1834.

    “The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, all serves to pass away time unnoticed.” (The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1984), p 324 in care of Community of Christ church)

    ReplyDelete
  30. By the way the nephites migrated north because they were being overrun by lamanites.

    ReplyDelete
  31. David,
    Do you read any of the information Del is putting out about FG Williams? Why do you ignore it? Here is a statement by a member of the earliest First Presidency that said Lehi landed at 30-degrees south latitude. There isn’t any other place spoken of as a landing place by any of the early leadership of the Church. Not Joseph, not Oliver – only FG Williams gave a landing place. I’ve always thought that they landed there and hoofed it north. That isn’t the case. That is where they landed and it all fits David. Look at the evidence. The winds and currents blow/flow out of Arabia following the route that FG Williams gave and it flows to South America. They could not have landed anywhere else and FG Williams wrote something down that is absolutely correct.

    What you are doing is taking early statements that are nothing more than opinion based on NO information and then trying to make it fit. It doesn’t fit at all. You even told me that the Lord blew the Jaredites up the St. Lawrence River into the Great Lakes. THAT”S ABSURD!!!!! It is very clear in Ether that the Jaredites were destroyed in the Land North. Ether 1:1 says so and Ether 10 as we discussed. Millions of people could NOT survive north of your narrow neck and these things completely destroy your model. It doesn’t work at all its absurd and you can’t tell me clearly how the Jaredites can live in the millions in Canada. The scriptures say they live in the North and you keep ignoring the scriptures that tell you they did. So what is to be done? You want to believe in your fantasy then go ahead. I don’t care – it’s nonsense and until you come up with a better story to tell me I won’t believe you.

    But stick around and read the information Del is putting forth. Maybe you ought to purchase his book then sit down and compare your lousy model to his. There is another book you ought to look for as well and that is The Book and the Map by Venice Priddis. You can find it at a used book store in Utah. I’d get Del’s first though because it is very good.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Fredrick g Williams got excommunicated. Joseph Smith and the scriptures are a better indication of where BOM lands took place

    D&c 54
    8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

    LETTER PENNED BY JOSEPH SMITH TO EMMA DURRING ZION’S CAMP MARCH WHICH TRAVELED FROM EASTERN OHIO THROUGH ILLINOIS TO MISOURI. JUNE 4, 1834.

    “The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, all serves to pass away time unnoticed.” (The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1984), p 324 in care of Community of Christ church)
    THE ZELPH MOUND DISCOVERY DURING ZION’S CAMP MARCH AFTER CROSSING THE ILLINOIS RIVER. JUNE 3, 1834

    Zelph

    In May and June 1834 Joseph Smith led a Mormon group (a paramilitary expedition known as Zion’s Camp) on a march from Kirtland, Ohio to Jackson County, Missouri. On June 3, while passing through west-central Illinois near Griggsville, some bones were unearthed from a mound. These bones were identified by Smith as belonging to a Lamanite chieftain-warrior named Zelph. The mound in question is now known as Naples-Russell Mound 8.
    “At about one foot deep we discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire; and between two of his ribs we found an Indian arrow, which had evidently been the cause of his death. Subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains.” The Hopewell Indians made highways and had an advanced trade system that extended to the Rocky Mountains. Joseph Smith vision of Zelph matches the extensive trade of the Hopewell Indians.
    The Prophet Onandagus is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, but he could have ties to the Onondaga Tribe whose traditional lands are in the state of New York.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Who's ignoring the scriptures

    D&c 54
    8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

    ReplyDelete
  34. David that doesn't mean they originated there. Where is your narrow neck. Where did they land. Nothing matches your model. You can't even intelligently discuss the information oh fg Williams. Your stuff is garbage and it's a waste of time talking to someone so ignorant. You just don't get it

    ReplyDelete
  35. The narrow neck is between Lake Huron and Lake Erie.

    They landed on the Gulf Coast between the Florida pan handle and Louisiana.

    F G Williams had a opinion. But I find Joseph Smith revelation and scripture to be a better source. Zelph was found on a Hopewell Mound in Illinois he participated in the last battles.
    Joseph had a revelation or you believe he made it up your choice.

    Zelph

    In May and June 1834 Joseph Smith led a Mormon group (a paramilitary expedition known as Zion’s Camp) on a march from Kirtland, Ohio to Jackson County, Missouri. On June 3, while passing through west-central Illinois near Griggsville, some bones were unearthed from a mound. These bones were identified by Smith as belonging to a Lamanite chieftain-warrior named Zelph. The mound in question is now known as Naples-Russell Mound 8.
    “At about one foot deep we discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire; and between two of his ribs we found an Indian arrow, which had evidently been the cause of his death. Subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains.” The Hopewell Indians made highways and had an advanced trade system that extended to the Rocky Mountains. Joseph Smith vision of Zelph matches the extensive trade of the Hopewell Indians.
    The Prophet Onandagus is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, but he could have ties to the Onondaga Tribe whose traditional lands are in the state of New York.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Couple of problems. No gold nor silver in Florida. No winds or currents flow there and Nephi couldn't tack. The climate is wrong for growing seeds from Jerusalem. They also landed on the coast of the West sea which doesn't fit the great lakes. So you see David your model is garbage from the beginning. The Jaredites were brought into the land North and that would be impossible. The St lawance river was impassable for ships and barges traveling upstream is absurd. You might want to rethink your fictional model some.

      Delete
  36. The Hopewell Indians Extended from the Great lakes to the Gulf of Mexico. The Hopewell had gold we know this by their gold and silver artifacts.
    The ocean current going around Africa would place Lehi in the spot off of Africa to be blown straight into the coast of Mississippi and the Florida pan handle. The same winds that blow hurricanes in that area is the same winds that would blow Nephi ship into the coast not to mention the currents travel that way to.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_current#/media/File:Corrientes-oceanicas.png

    The st Lawrence seaway is used today for traffic today given the description of the Bro Jared’s ships and how they were driven. They lord could easily allow winds to blow their ships of the ST Lawrence seaway.
    The boats were light upon the water like water fowl and driven by wind. From what it sounds like they were driven by the winds of large storms that happened during their voyage that included floods it sounds like they were built specifically to travel up the ST Lawrence Seaway.
    Ether 2:16
    And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water.
    Ether 2:24
    for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the WINDS HAVE GONE FORTHOUT OF MY MOUTH, and also the RAINS AND FLOODS have I sent forth.
    St Lawrence River also has some of the strongest tidal forces anywhere in the world.
    On the Saint Lawrence River, tides affect shipping upstream past Quebec City, which is located several hundred miles inland from the Gulf of Saint Lawrence and the Atlantic Ocean.
    Your are batting 0 for 3

    ReplyDelete
  37. Well that's all nonsense. There are no gold and silver deposits in Florida. It's all limestone with sinkholes. Nephi said the found gold and silver. Now where they really landed at 30 degrees S lat has gold and silver.

    You did address the landing on the west coast and West sea. You even said the gulf is the sea South so both of those fail.

    The idea that there were mountain waves in a river is absurd. That is pure fantacy so that one fails. Millions of people could not live in Canada so that one fails.

    Climate and soil conditions are wrong so that one fails.

    Nephi did not have the expertise nor the type of ship that could make it around the cape of good hope in Africa. This is called the graveyard of ships so that one fails. Also it should be pointed out the the distance to NA is 2 times that of Chile where Williams through revelation said they landed so that one fails.

    Looks like your model is still garbage. Let's try a little harder next time to answer the questions that you keep ignoring. I've answered yours but you are incapable of answering mine. I guess it's because you don 't have any answers.

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  38. Your climate and soil argument is silly. I never said they were driven by waves on a river. On the river they were driven by "fierce winds"

    ReplyDelete