Friday, February 24, 2017

A Last Comment from McKane – Part I

McKane writes: Del these are some of the issues I have with your model. I would appreciate short concise answers if you choose to respond to these questions. Long drawn out answers are painful to read. If you cite North America for answers to items not found In south America that only supports North America models not South America.
1) Any evidence of migrating beast in South America (Alma 22:31)
    Response: Alma 22:31 is not about migration but about animals being driven out of the Land Northward by poisonous serpents; from that point on they simply spread throughout the open land as basically all animals would do over the ensuing 1000 to 1200 years.
Since the Lord caused the serpents and the animals to be driven out of the Land Northward into the Land Southward it would be safe to assume that the Lord was also responsible to see that these animals reached the landing sights of Mulek and Lehi. Every zoologist speaking about South American animals will tell you they came from the Great Animal Interchange and migrated (or spread) throughout the continent.
2) Head-plates no evidence of Head-plates in South America during BOM timeline (Alma 43:38)
    Response: The Etowah Mounds in Georgia, with a copper breastplate (found in Mound C) have been dated to 950 A.D. to 1450 A.D., with a date of 1250 most likely. In addition, as has been pointed out in earlier responses to your comment about breastplates, we showed a picture of the breastplate that is so thin, it would not have been any protection to the wearer and was most likely a ceremonial breastplate, not a protective one as Moroni caused his army to wear. As for other so-called breastplates, one engraving showed a mound that had a ditch around three sides and a palisade wall for protection. On a stone engraving a figure is either holding a tablet or wearing a breastplate in a Hopewell Mound in Ohio, which may have been dated as late as 500 A.D. Copper breastplates claimed to be found in Florida, undated but believed to be pre-Columbian. Copper breastplates in the Seip Mound in Ohio believed to be A.D. period, and could be as late as 500 A.D. In some works this culture is thought to have been from 100 B.C. to 500 A.D., but no dating verification is given, and all information available and, in fact, their “existence is still under discussion,” which means they are using archaeology “traditions” which arbitrarily give dates to things found by subject, not by any factual dating method. According to the history made for them (no records exist to show anything factual), their mounds were “built for uncertain purposes.”
Their “gigantic sculpted earthworks often took the shape of animals, birds, or writhing serpents” (Gary B Nash, Red, White and Black: The Peoples of Early North America, Los Angeles 2015. Chapter 1, p6). 
Many mounds are effigy mounds, i.e., depictions of various animals or designed. Top: a serpent; Bottom Left: a land animal, such as a buffalo; Bottom Right: a bird
Archaeologists have created an entire “Hopewell Exchange System,” claiming they traded all over the United States based solely on finding certain artifacts in burial mounds, which could have been produced locally by different groups or migrants from groups. Some claim they began in Illinois and some claim they began in New York. It is claimed they built defensive walls, yet it is also said of them that they did not have rulers who commanded armies (Hopewell Culture, Ohio History Central. Ohio Historical Society).
    Note: In South America, archaeologists use carbon-14 dating on all locations, artifacts, and ruins; in North America, especially in the Mound cultures, archaeological dating methods are used, i.e., not finding any pottery shards gives a time frame of Pre-ceramic, i.e., which determines the date period, not a specific dat--and there is no guarantee that the culture never had pottery, only that no pieces were found.
3) West Lamanites lived in tents any evidence of South American indigenous population that lived in tents (Alma 22:28)
    Response: You have got to be kidding! Nobody, except through speculation and opinion, could ever say somebody lived in tents in any area of the past where there is no continuing occupation—tents simply do not last 1000 to 2000 years, nor do they leave evidence of their past use. Not even wood structures will survive that long. Your question and stance on this is both ill-founded and without scholarly merit.
4a) The Nephite building structure is wood. When timber was low they used cement in the Land Northward. (Helaman 3:7) 
    Response: Helaman 3:7 has to do only with those who occupied the Land Northward in the last century B.C. There were no trees to obtain timber. Timber is needed in all construction, whether stone buildings, mud brick buildings, or cement., as framing, stairs, roofing structures, etc.—even Solomon’s Temple had wood beams brought from the land of Lebanon, and wood paneling (though this was covered in gold). However, you err in saying the Nephites built only of wood. 
All ancient building materials included wood, whether the house was made of mud brick, stone or cement--especially the 600 B.C. style houses that were built by the Hebrews around Jerusalem as shown here. Some of these houses could not have had two stories, roofs, stairs, or other framework without wood and why it was so important to those who went north into the Land Northward in building their houses
The Nephites were Hebrews (what are called Jews today) with 500 years culture behind them when Lehi arrived in the Land of Promise. Their land from which they came was all built of stone (though wood was also used as mentioned above). Lehi’s house outside Jerusalem would have been built with stone, just like all the others.
    In South America (Ecuador, the Land Northward) there are numerous evidences of ancient ruins of cement use.
    The only mention of timber besides the Land Northward has to do with defensive walls—there is no mention of building with wood anything else in the Land Southward
4b) Any South American tribes that used timber for the houses buildings and temples.
    Timber was plentiful in Andean South America and no doubt many early tribes did, there is much evidence of wood used in connection with stone and other materials.
4c) Note that the Book of Mormon never states that the Nephites or Lamanites built there building from stone.
    Response: Note that the Book of Mormon never states that the Nephites built there houses out of only timber, or that any houses were built out of timber in the Land Southward.
    Note: Mormon writes: “building walls of stone to encircle them about, round about their cities and the borders of their lands; yea, all round about the land” (Alma 48:8). The Nephites used stone a great deal and were well familiar with it.
5) Shipping the Nephites shipped timber to the land northward because of the lack of timber how do you suggest this was done in South America. Specifics like which river would be helpful. (Helaman 3:10).
Left: Map of Ecuador. Dark Blue Lines show the major rivers that flow into the Gulf of Guayaquil, including the Guayas, Jubones, Zarumilla and the Tumbes rivers; Right Top: The Guayas River; Right Bottom: The Jubones River. The Gulf of Guayaqui is where Hagoth's shipyard would be, and wood could be shipped to any part of the Land Northward from that point
    Response: You seem to love to speculate. Well, I’ll speculate right along with you—in Ecuador, the Land Northward, moving from the south to the north, from the Gulf of Guayaquil (where Hagoth's shipyard was located), there is the Guayas River, Jubones River, Zarumilla River and the Tumbes River, all of which are large, major rivers and capable of having a sea going ship to sail far northward into the area. An interesting river system exists within Ecuador that stems from an area called “The Land of Many Waters” an area Southwest of Quito covering hundreds of square miles where ships carrying timber would have access to landing along sufficient land areas to cover the entire Land Northward.
6) Earthen mound wall around ALL their cities. Do you have evidence that the indigenous people of South America used earthen mounds around all their cities? (Alma 50:1)
    Response: Do you have evidence that the indigenous people of North America used stone walls around all their cities throughout all the land? (Alma 48:8). We certainly do in South America. Do you have signs of stone walls built from the West Sea to the east that served as defensive walls against a southern attack that stretch for at least a day’s journey of a man? And yes, there are signs of earthen walls in South America. It might also be noted that nearly all the famous mounds of the Eastern U.S. were either “burial mounds” or effigy mounds, or in some cases possibly platform of decoration.
As an example, these mounds in the eastern U.S. are not defensive walls, and neither are
the vast majority of the mounds found in the Eastern U.S. 
7) Timber stockades and evidence the indigenous people of south America during the time of the Book of Mormon or any time for that matter used timber stockades around all their cities. (Alma 50:2). 
    Response: Again, these eastern U.S. mounds are not defensive walls around cities
There is simply nothing in the Book of Mormon to suggest that these earthworks shown here are what Mormon mentions in the scriptural record. In addition, wooden stockade type walls would not last 1000 years and there are no such walls dated to Nephite times in the Eastern U.S. What some writers claim are such walls have been shown by other historians to be far more recent, even as recent as the famed Indian Wars ot the 17th century and later.

8) D&C 54:8 states that Missouri is a border of the Lamanites suggesting one side is Lamanite the other side is Nephites.
9) Joseph Smith has made many statements that North American, American Indians as the laminates. 
    Response to 8 and 9: The Nephites and Lamanites went north in Hagoth‘s ships, settled Central America and North America over time. Nephites and Lamanites would have been found throughout South and North America so it is not surprising that evidence is found in the U.S., and also why several Prophets and General Authorities including Joseph Smith has called the Western Hemisphere the Land of Promise.
(Questions 10-24 answered on the next post)

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