Friday, February 10, 2017

Answering a Reader's Eastern U.S. Model – Part V: Mountains, Whose Height is Great - Part I


When it comes to seas, McKane has as slew of them, six in all, not counting the Sea that Divides the Land, which we will get into below; however, to begin with we'll look at his South Sea, which by the way, Mormon names the Sea South (Helaman 3:8), a distinction McKane claims gives hims six seas instead of four, and which McKane places in the Gulf of Mexico as shown in his map below:
Top: McKane's map of his South Sea as the Gulf of Mexico; Bottom: Another of his maps which he shows (white arrow) the Land of First Inheritance along the Gulf Coast making ujp a large part of h is Land of Nephi

At the same time, McKane claims that the Land of First Inheritance is along the entire seashore and coast of the Guolf states, from Florida to Louisiana, with an indication on at least one other map of his that Lehi landed along the west coast of northern Florida. Now, taking all of that in hand, we wonder where Mormon's description of this fits into McKane's plan, since Mormon tells us that the Land of First Inheritance was along the West Sea toward the South in the Land of Nephi, not the South Sea. In fact, McKane's entire Land of Nephi on the map below is nowhere near the West Sea, which his landing site for Lehi is 800 Miles from his West Sea! Somehow, McKane doesn't see that as a discrepancy, and evidently neither do any who have ever seen his map before according to his boast--which stated, as we covered in the last post, that no one has ever been able to find anything wrong with his map—no discrepancies with the scriptural record—which we showed eighteen variances with which his map either doesn’t agree with the scriptural record, with Hebrew/Jewish custom, or just plain common sense in the last two posts. 
    Another example of his map is shown below:
Another case in point: Mckane's map shows the Land of Nephi stretching to a sea in the east (Atlantic Ocean), but not his Sea East (Lake Erie) or East Sea (Lake Ontario) of his map; nor does it stretch to his Sea East or East Sea as Mormon describes (Alma 22:27)

However, Mormon writes that this land of the Lamanite king, the Land of Nephi (Alma 22:1) was bordered by two seas: “And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west” (Alma 22:27, emphasis added). 
    In addition, Mormon tells us the Land of Nephi and the Land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water except for a small neck of land between the Land Northward and the Land Southward (Alma 22:32). Also, he has no Sea West along the Land of Nephi, just a river, and a rather narrow one at that.
    Another glaring error of McKane's map over land location is the fact that Samuel the Lamanite gave us great insight into what it would contain. It does not take much knowledge or understanding to recognize his contribution to the description of the Land of Promise when he states that the Lord put words into his heart (Helaman 13:3) and he was told to speak them. From the Temple wall, Samuel told the Nephites in Zarahemla:
    “And behold, there shall be great tempests, and there shall be many mountains laid low, like unto a valley, and there shall be many places which are now called valleys which shall become mountains, whose height is great” (Helaman 14:23). 
    Now let’s not minimize Samuel’s comment, since he added that these signs, and others even greater, are given for a purpose, which “the angel said unto me that many shall see greater things than these, to the intent that they might believe that these signs and these wonders should come to pass upon all the face of this land, to the intent that there should be no cause for unbelief among the children of men” (Helaman 14:28, emphasis added). That is, the sight of these valleys turning into mountains and shooting upward to levels “whose height is great” and many other wonders, were for the purpose of showing the Nephites and Lamanites not only the power of God, but that he had atoned for the sins of man, etc.
    David, you wrote recently in answer to this from one of our readers about the height is great: "To a Nephite the term whose height i great is relative to where you live. To a person who lives in Arizona the highest peak is in Arizon. If you live in Utah the highest peak you know of is in Utah. There are plenty of mountain ranges in North America. But you never did answer the question there is no verse in the Book of Mormon that states Zarahemla has mountains and you are misleading your readers. Under your logic the land of promise is in Nepal peaks of the mountains are great. Your logic is silly and your making stuff up there is no verse that states Zarahemla has a single mountain."
    Really, David? Really? 
First of all, Nephi in his vision of the Land of Promise "saw mountains tumbling into pieces" (1 Nephi 12:4), suggesting there were mountains in the Land of Promise, which generally refers to the Land of Zarahenla since that was the Nephite capital and most writing and activity of the entire Book of Mormon takes place there; also, speaking of the Land of Zarahemla where the Gaddianton Robbers were sequestered, "they would retreat back into the mountains" (Helaman 11:25), and this is where, fed up with it the Nephits "sent an army of strong men into the wilderness and upon the mountains..." (Helaman 11:28), and when the Nephites failed eliminate the Robbers, "they were again obliged to return out of the wilderness and out of the mountains" (Helaman 11:31), and returned to their  homes out of the mountains and into their own land, "because of the exceeding greatness of the numbers of those robbers who infested the mountains and the wilderness" (Helaman 11:31). Also, "save it were for the Gadianton Robbers, who dwelt upon mountains, who did infest the land" (3 Nephi 1:27)' and "the war between the robbers and the people of Nephi did continue...the people of Nephi did gain some advantage of the robbers, insomuch that they did drive them back out of their lands into the mountains and into their secret places" (3 Nephi 2:17). Again in 3 Nephi 3:20, and finally, when the Gadianton Robbers came "forth form the hills, and out of the mountains, and the wilderness...and began to take possession of the lands which had been deserted by the Nephites" (3 Nephi 4:1). And let's not forget that a "great Mountain" was "carried up upon the city of Moronihah" (3 Nephi 8:10). 
If my count is correct, that makes nine (9) times mountains are mentioned as being in the Land of Zarahemla!  To say there is no mention of Mountains in the Land of Zarahemla is totally without merit and you would know that if you spent the time researching instead of trying to counter someone's view different than your own. 
    McKane also wrote in thing to obviate the idea of mountains in the Land of Zarahemla: "Zarahemla is not even mentioned in that chapter [which is Helaman 11]. It's a great verse about the gadianton robbers though. "And they did commit murder and plunder; and then they would retreat back into the mountains,andinto the wilderness and secret places, hiding themselves that they could not be discovered, receiving daily an addition to their numbers, inasmuch as there were dissenters that went forth unto them." Keep trying." 
    One can only wonder what is in McKane's mindthe quote isabout mountains, the entire chapter is about the Land of Zarahemla, and the Gadianton Robbers began in the Land of Zarahemla and later extended in the Land of Nephi. It is as though McKane thinks that those verses he doesn't like or that disagree with his scenario are about some other land. If anyone needs to keep trying it is McKane and he could start by finding a model land that mirrors the entire scriptural record. The problem is with McKane, as with almost all theorists, if some fact disagrees with their point of view, they ignore it, ridicule it, and claim it is not what Mormon says it is. McKane has demonstrated a continual similar approach to all he does not agree with.
As for Samuel, it is a shame David that you feel so superior as to cast dispersion on such a great individual who was deliverying a prophecy so meaningful that all future generations of Nephites could not miss the signs and would be judged accordingly. A prophecy you render so insignificantthat it is almost meaningless, yet it was the means that the Lord chose to chastise his people in ZarahemlaSamuel stood and described what would happen in the Land of Zarahemla, and the Land of Bountiful, and in the Land Northward, and in 3 Nephi, we find that his prophecy happened in those three lands. You call this silly? By the way, "silly" means having or showing a lack of common sense or judgment, absurd and foolish," and describing a "foolish person." How absurd to call iterry foolish. His intelligence and knowledge so far outstrips what you have shown in your comments here that it is beyond discussion.
    To claim there were no mountains and the scriptural record doesn't say there were mountains in the Land of Zarahemla is beyond "silly," it is fallacious and without redeeming value. We pride ourselves here on being scholarly and knowledgeable--your lack of both that you express in your comments is a poor support for your view. You might also want to use spellcheck, David, to save me the time and effort of constantly correcting your spelling errors and missing words.
(See the next post, ”Answering a Reader – Part II,” for more information on David Mckane’s model around the Great Lakes of his Land of Promise and our responses to his comments on our blog)

45 comments:

  1. David, I propose a new naming system for your confusing maps. Since you disregard the BOM anyway I’m sure it wouldn't be much of a change for you to make. The Atlantic Ocean should be named the “East Sea Which Really is a Sea”. It really is a sea and a barrier so I think you should add Really is a Sea to your naming system. Your Lake Ontario east sea should be named Lake East East Sea. That would distinguish it from the other East Sea which is Lake Erie. Lake Erie should be named Lake East West Sea. Then let’s name your Lake Huron Lake West East Sea. Of course that would mean that Lake Michigan should be named Lake West West Sea. That way even I can grasp what you are saying. Now of course we have a real west sea and that is the Pacific Ocean. I know it might be a little redundant to use all the west(s) in a name, but given your most excellent maps (cough) I propose you name it the “West West West Sea Which Really is a Sea”.

    Now of course Lake Superior would be named Lake Superior North Sea. We need to think about that though because over in Europe there really is a North Sea off of England. Maybe we should name it Lake Superior North Kind-of Sea. That way we won’t get it confused with the real North Sea over in Europe. The South Sea which is a Gulf is problematic. How about “South Sea Almost Surrounded by Land”. Jacob in the BOM said that they were living on an Island 2 Nephi 10:20. In other words the Island was surrounded by water. Since your land of Promise isn’t surrounded by water as Jacob said it was I think the designation of “South Sea Almost Surrounded by Land” would fit quite well.

    This of course would be far more descriptive and save me the time of learning your rather confusing naming system. I’m sure Mormon et al would agree. Thanks

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    1. Dave, can I call you Dave? Do you even read these posts? Where did Del state that Zarahemla is the First Inheritance?

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    2. Actually Iterry made it sound like Zarahemla was first inheritance but I could be wrong. Del where do you place first Inheritance on your map. I'm assuming Iterry went off of Del's map. Iterry Quote

      . "It says very clearly that they Zarahemla is on the west by the seashore. It says the first inheritance was always in the west bordering on the seashore. "

      By the way according to the Book of Mormon the land of Nephi does not border the West sea only the east sea.

      Helaman 50:8
      8 And the land of a Nephi did run
      in a straight course from the east
      sea to the west.

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    3. David you misunderstand(as usual). My point was simply that the land of the 1st inheritance. Was on the West sea period.

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    4. I should clarify that the West sea is the WestWestWest sea which really is a sea.

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  4. Land of Nephi stretching in a straight line did not border the west sea.

    Helaman 50:8
    8 And the land of a Nephi did run
    in a straight course from the east
    sea to the west.

    Notice the west sea is missing in the above verse the land of Nephi that Nephi first populated did not border the West Sea.

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  5. There are three major mountain ranges in New York: the Adirondack Mountains, the Catskill Mountains, and part of the Appalachian Mountains.

    Mountain ranges in Tennessee Blue Ridge Mountains‎, Great Smoky Mountains‎

    Mountain ranges of Missouri Ozarks‎, St. Francois Mountains‎ , U.S. Interior Highlands‎

    In terms of the largest mountain range in the Land of Promise (North America) your looking at the Rocky mountains.

    To a Nephite the term whos height is great is relative to where you live. To person who lives in Arizona the highest peak is in Arizona. If you live in Utah the highest peak you know of is in Utah. There are plenty of mountain ranges in north America. But you and iterry never did answer the question there is no verse in the Book of Mormon that states Zarahemla has mountains your misleading your readers.

    Under your logic the land of promise is in Nepal the peaks of those mountains are great.

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  6. Seas of the Nephites

    1) East Sea (Lake Erie): Alma 50:8, Alma 50:13, Alma 52:13

    2) Sea East (Lake Ontario) Alma 22:27, Helaman 3:8, Helaman 11:20

    3) West Sea (Lake Michigan) Alma 22:32-33, Alma 50:11, Alma 52:11-12, Alma 53:8, Alma 63:5, Helaman 4:17,

    4) Sea West (Lake Huron) Alma 22:27, Helaman 3:8, Helaman 11:20

    5) Sea South (Gulf of Mexico) Helaman 3:8

    6) North Sea (Lake Superior) Helaman 3:8

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  7. You could not be more wrong about Zarahemla being first Inheritance. First Inheritance is where they landed first not Zarahemla. The Nephites went from First inheritance to the land of Nephi THEN king Mosiah brings the people from the Land of Nephi to Zarahemla and they join the Muelikites

    Omni 1:12
    I will speak unto you somewhat concerning Mosiah, who was made king over the land of Zarahemla; for behold, he being warned of the Lord that he should flee out of the land of Nephi...
    First Inheritance is not next to the West Sea. There is no verse in the Book of Mormon that states which sea borders first Inheritance. The verse you are pointing to when it talks about the forefather’s inheritance refers ONLY to the Forefathers of the Lamanites WHO LIVED IN TENTS. By the way South American indigenous tribes did not live in tents. The Lamanites Inheritance is on the shoreline of the WEST side of the land of Nephi. The shoreline is the gulf of Mexico. First Inheritance FOR THE NEPHITES IS probably east of the First Inheritance of the Lamanites who lived in tents. The west sea is not in the verse YOUR CITING. Given the Nephites migrated south to north it only makes sense that the Nephites landed in the South Sea. The Hopewell covered thousands of miles from the Gulf Cost to the Great Lakes their trade extended thousands of miles to the Rock Mountains. The Nephites migrated from south to north. They migrated north so that they Lamanites did not wipe them out. If you wanted to preserve your life would you migrate a couple miles or hundreds of miles so that your family was not wiped out. I’m sure their horses and Chariots helped their trade. 700 miles is not an issue.


    http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/book-of-mormon-horses-chariots-highways.html

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  8. Concerning Zarahemla having mountains you reference. Helaman 11:25,28,31
    In Helaman Chapter 11 the city or land of Zarahemla is never mentioned in that Chapter.
    3Ne 1:27 3Ne 2:17 3Ne 3:20 3Ne4:1 3Ne8:10
    In these verses, it states that the Gadianton robbers lived in the mountains but one verse in particular disproves what you are trying to say it states the Mountains occupied by the Gadianton robbers is not part of the Nephite lands.
    3Ne 1:27 3Ne 2:17 3Ne 3:20 3Ne4:1

    3Ne 2:17
    insomuch that they did drive them back OUT OF THEIR LANDS into the mountains and into their
    secret places.

    3Ne8:10 Is about the City of Moronihah not Zarahemla in that Moronihah gains a mountain when Christ Visits the Nephites.
    10 And the earth was carried up upon the city of Moronihah, that in the place of the city there became a great mountain.

    At this point your biggest problem is to explain away why the Land of Nephi does not border a West Sea.
    Helaman 50:8
    8 And the land of a Nephi did run
    in a straight course from the east
    sea to the west.

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  9. Your sea analysis David is absurd

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    1. Considering that I do not have the land of Nephi bordering the west sea it matches quite nicely with the Book of Mormon.

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    2. Yes but not the first inheritamce and so it fails

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  10. Del quick question do you place Zarahemla in a mountainous region?

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    1. David, gosh I wish you could read the bom. Zarahemla was on the west sea shore. That is WestWestWest sea which really is a sea. There are mountains as it says as you go inland. The ruins are Pachcamaca in Peru today which is South of Lima. The wall and temple are still there. It is in ruins of course.

      My question is you don't seem to have the intelligence to understand much. Who did you copy your maps from? I'd like to talk to the source person. You obviously can't defend them inrltelligenly. Thanks

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    2. David. Many of your comments follow a pattern of asking Del how his theories match yours. If you want to be taken seriously (and your "No one has ever found a problem with any of my maps" claim seriously reduces the odds of that) you should really read what Del has already said on the subject. The first two of his books directly address everything you are asking, and almost everything in those books has been posted (and re-posted) on this site. It will take some effort on your part, but knowing the details of what you are arguing against may garner you some respect. Essentially you are coming across as someone who is trying to hijack this website because you are unable to gain the interest of anyone to visit your own.

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    3. I have seen to many errors with what del has and stricture here the examples that he tries to explain away but it involves mental gymnastics to accept the theories he is pushing. Calling horses alpaca not having migrating beast goats cattle wheat barley Book of Mormon Artifacts etc are all things that nobody can get behind unless you drink the Del Coolaid

      1)The notion that the west sea borders the land of Zarahemla and the Land of Nephi is not supported by scripture.
      We know that the East sea borders the Land of Nephi but if the Land of Nephi truly bordered the Pacific Ocean it would say so but it doesn’t say that.
      Helaman 50:8
      8 And the land of a Nephi did run
      in a straight course from the east
      sea to the west. (Describing the Land of Nephi west and east border it only mentions the East Sea)

      2) If Zarahemla bordered the west sea Hagoth could have launched from Zarahemla but in order to launch from the west sea Hagoth had to travel North. Don’t you see a problem with that he traveled North not west. See Alma 63.
      When the Lamanites retreat from Zarahemla they retreat North and West towards wilderness. The scriptures state the only thing west of Zarahemla is wilderness and Lamanites not a Sea. See Alma 2
      Alma 22:28
      Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness,
      and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on
      the west, in the land of Nephi; YEA, AND ALSO ON THE WEST OF THE LAND OF ZARAHEMLA,

      3) The scriptures point to the idea that the West Sea most southern point did not extend past much of Bountiful. When the Laminates get ready to attack bountiful it gives the indication that they are south of the West Sea. Alma 53:8
      8 And now it came to pass that the armies of the Lamanites, on the
      WEST SEA, SOUTH, while in the absence of Moroni on account of some intrigue
      amongst the Nephites, which caused dissensions amongst them, had gained some ground over the Nephites, yea, insomuch that they had obtained possession of a number
      of their cities in that part of the land.

      4) You state that Zarahemla is in the Land northward north of the Narrow Neck that is not what the scriptures say. The scriptures say Zarahemla is in the land southward south of the Narrow Neck.

      Ether 9:31
      31 And there came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of the land, and did poison many people. And it came to pass that their flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land SOUTHWARD, which was called by the NEPHITES ZARAHEMLA.

      Bountiful is also stated as being in the Land southward
      Alma 22
      31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and THE LAND SOUTHWARD WAS called Bountiful,


      Alma 22:32
      there being a SMALL NECK OF LAND BETWEEN the LAND NORTHWARD and the LAND SOUTHWARD.

      4) You state that Zarahemla has mountains and pointed to a couple of verses that stated the Gadianton warriors lived in a wilderness that had mountains. Nothing to do with Zarahemla. The other verse states that the city of moronihah got covered by a mountain before Christ visit. Once again it has nothing to do with Zarahemla. Hills and plains are mentioned more in the Book of Mormon then mountains are mentioned. The only people who lived in the mountains were robbers.

      5) The notion that the mountains mention in the Book of Mormon need to be a certain elevation to qualify as great is your opinion and your opinion only. We live in a day when we understand the mountain ranges and the elevation of their peaks. The Nephites were only aware of and could only compare the greatest of mountains that they knew of. The idea that the Andes mountains are the only mountains that qualify is ridiculous.

      6) You have no explanation for the migrating beast mentioned in the Book of Mormon (no migrating mammals in south America) and the Lamanites on the west part of the land of Nephi and Zarahemla who lived in TENTS (Tepees). There are no south American civilizations that lived-in tents.

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  11. David: You wrote: “Land of Nephi stretching in a straight line did not border the west sea.”
    Response: You need to learn that there are usually multiple comments scattered through the scriptural record that give a full picture of things—and not rely on just one verse comment. As an example, Mormon, in his insertion as he outlines the land controlled by the Lamantie king, ie., the Land of Nephi, in which he states quite clearly, “And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west…” (Alma 22:27).
    In this we find that the Land of Nephi ran from the East Sea to the West Sea. What is sad about your viewpoints is that you do not even have the Land of Nephi running from the East Sea. Nor does your Land of Nephi “run in a straight line” as you write above.
    You are so busy trying to find fault with everyone else’s views and map that you fail to see your own glaring errors. What is it the Lord said in the Sermon on the Mount? “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?” (Matthew 7:3) And then adds, “Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye” (Matthew 7:5) (See also Luke 6:41,42). The moral lesson to be learned here is to avoid hypocrisy self-righteousness, and censoriousness (common scold), i.e., fix your own errors before you discuss others’ views.
    David, you wrote: “Helaman 50:8 8 And the land of a Nephi did run in a straight course from the east sea to the west.”
    Response: First of all, David, you need to learn that Helaman has only 16 chapters, but you keep giving us a reference of Helaman 50:8 (when you mean Alma 50:8).
    Secondly, you added: “Notice the west sea is missing in the above verse the land of Nephi that Nephi first populated did not border the West Sea.”
    Response: There is a part of grammar that is called an “Elliptical Clause” (truncated clause) of which we have written about before in these pages, which is described as: “An elliptical clause is a clause in which some words have been left out. Because of the pattern or logic of the entire sentence, it is clear what the missing words are. An elliptical clause may be either independent or subordinate.” It is “marked by the use of few words to convey much information of meaning,” which means “An elliptical construction is a construction that lacks an element that is recoverable or inferable from the context.”
    This obviously means that you do not always have to be redundant and state the same thing over again,” and “marked by the extreme economy of speech or writing,” i.e., the sentence you indicated: “And the land of a Nephi did run in a straight course from the east sea to the west (sea).” It is the same ellipt writing as in “in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers' first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the (West) seashore” (Alma 22:28), and in “it was only the distance of a day and a half's journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east (sea) to the west sea” (Alma 22:32), and in “the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful, even from the east (sea) unto the west sea, and thus the Nephites in their wisdom, with their guards and their armies, had hemmed in the Lamanites on the south…” (Alma 22:33). Another example of ellipsis in the book of Mormon is: “I am commanded to stand and (I am commanded to) testify unto this people.”
    And to show that is the meaning, we come back to Mormon’s insertion in Alma 22, when he describes the Land of Nephi, i.e., the land controlled by the Lamanite king “ran from the East Sea to the West Sea” (Alma 22;27).

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  12. David, you wrote above: “In these verses, it states that the Gadianton robbers lived in the mountains but one verse in particular disproves what you are trying to say it states the Mountains occupied by the Gadianton robbers is not part of the Nephite lands.” 3Ne 1:27 3Ne 2:17 3Ne 3:20 3Ne4:1
    Response: First, your initial reference states: “And it came to pass that the ninety and third year did also pass away in peace, save it were for the Gadianton robbers, who dwelt upon the mountains, who did infest the land; for so strong were their holds and their secret places that the people could not overpower them; therefore they did commit many murders, and did do much slaughter among the people” (3 Nephi 1:27).
    You seem to get mixed up in your idea of the Land of Promise. Keep in mind that in the Land Southward, among that land north of the narrow strip of wilderness, which we sometimes incorrectly call the Land of Zarahemla as all inclusive, there are other lands, suh as Manti, Morianton, Lehi, Moroni, Jershon, etc. One of those is the Land of Gideon, the Valley of Gideon and the City of Gideon, all east of the Sidon River and not in the Land of Zarahemla proper. As an example, the City of Salt Lake is in Salt lake County, but also in that county is West Valley City, West Jordan, Sandy, Draper, Alta, etc. Gideon is another land and separate from the Land of Zarahemla, though part of the greater Land of Zarahemla (county).
    The topography of the Land of Zarahemla is flat in the west along the seashore, where the Mulekites landed and the city of Zarahemla is located, however, as you go inland, there are mountains, some very tall (18,000 t 20,000-feet). In the east, where the Gadianton Robbers were located, it was very mountainous, with numerous scriptural references about mountains are located regarding the Robbers’ hideouts. The city of Gideon is in a valley, and the valley, like all valleys (a valley is a low area of land between hills or mountains), is surrounded or nearly surrounded to some extent, by mountains.
    (continued below)

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  13. (continued from above)
    You seem to get mixed up in your idea of the Land of Promise. First of all, You quoted 3 Nephi 2:17, which states: “And it came to pass in the commencement of the fourteenth year, the war between the robbers and the people of Nephi did continue and did become exceedingly sore; nevertheless, the people of Nephi did gain some advantage of the robbers, insomuch that they did drive them back out of their lands into the mountains and into their secret places. This is not rocket science, i.e., within the land we usually call Nephite Lands because they are north of the narrow neck of land and the Lamanite controlled lands, were mountainous regions some of which were the secret hideouts of the Gadianton Robbers, and while this area was not in the occupied area of the Nephites, it was still within the Land of Nephi (county) probably among some of the lands mentioned above that were in the east.
    In another of your references, it states: “Now the people said unto Gidgiddoni: Pray unto the Lord, and let us go up upon the mountains and into the wilderness, that we may fall upon the robbers and destroy them in their own lands” (3 Nephi 3:20). Again, this is not rocket science—the Gaddianton Robbers controlled an area in the mountains in the Land of Zarahemla (county) which Mormon is here saying “in their lands,” meaning the lands the Gaddianton Robbers controlled. It is in no way saying this was a separate land, not part of the overall Land of Zarahemla (county).
    In the last of your references: “And it came to pass that in the latter end of the eighteenth year those armies of robbers had prepared for battle, and began to come down and to sally forth from the hills, and out of the mountains, and the wilderness, and their strongholds, and their secret places, and began to take possession of the lands, both which were in the land south and which were in the land north, and began to take possession of all the lands which had been deserted by the Nephites, and the cities which had been left desolate” (3 Nephi 4:1). Again, and this should not be hard for anyone to understand, part of the Land of Zarahemla (county), i.e., that land north of the narrow strip of wilderness controlled overall by the Nephites, the Gaddianton Robbers held a portion of the mountainous area because of their strength and were hard to root out by the Nephite armies because their hideouts were secret.
    Thus, your comment “it states the Mountains occupied by the Gadianton robbers is not part of the Nephite lands.” This is patently not true.

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  14. David, you wrote: “Concerning Zarahemla having mountains you reference. Helaman 11:25,28,31. In Helaman Chapter 11 the city or land of Zarahemla is never mentioned in that Chapter.”
    Response: We answered this in one of the recent comment sections of your writing. When you don’t read our responses to your comments and keep repeating them, you lose all respect and credibility.

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  15. David, you wrote: “Seas of the Nephites: 1) East Sea (Lake Erie): Alma 50:8, Alma 50:13, Alma 52:13 ; 2) Sea East (Lake Ontario) Alma 22:27, Helaman 3:8, Helaman 11:20; 3) West Sea (Lake Michigan) Alma 22:32-33, Alma 50:11, Alma 52:11-12, Alma 53:8, Alma 63:5, Helaman 4:17; 4) Sea West (Lake Huron) Alma 22:27, Helaman 3:8, Helaman 11:20; 5) Sea South (Gulf of Mexico) Helaman 3:8; 6) North Sea (Lake Superior) Helaman 3:8”
    Response: At one time Mormon tells us all the surrounding seas of the Land of Promise, in which he wrote: “And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east” (Helaman 3:8). That does not leave any room for any other seas that would be peripheral to the Land of Promise as your two east seas and two west seas are. You simply haven’t a leg to stand on. The only other sea that is mentioned is “where the sea divides the land” (Ether 10:20), and this is really not a named sea, therefore, not separate from the four seas mentioned in Helaman 3:8, but a part of a sea that cuts into the land (like a bay or gulf).
    Obviously, you take great pride in something you feel sets you apart from everyone else, but it is not so worded or stated in the scriptural record and you might as well be talking about a Land Eastward and a Land Westward as your two extra seas that do not exist.

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  16. David, you wrote: "To a Nephite the term whos height is great is relative to where you live."
    Response: We answered this the other day in one of your other comments that stated the same thing. If you are not going to read our responses, stop making inaccurate statements.

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  17. David, you wrote: "In terms of the largest mountain range in the Land of Promise (North America) your looking at the Rocky Mountains."
    Response: Perhaps you should invest in an atlas. The Rocky Mountains are not in the area of your Land of Promise on your many maps, but actually far from it. Of the mountain ranges you do list (in New York), none are in the area of your Land of Zarahemla, Land of Nephi, Land of Bountiful or Land Northward.
    You also wrote: “There are three major mountain ranges in New York the Adirondack Mountains, the Catskill Mountains, and part of the Appalachian Mountains”
    Response: Again, you err. The mountains ranges on the east coast of the U.S. are not major mountain ranges regarding height—only one is listed as “major” and that is in the land it covers, which is the Appalachian which stretches all along the eastern coast. And those three ranges, the highest peak is only 6684-feet and that is in the Appalachians; the highest peak in the Adirondacks is 5344-feet; and in the Catskills, the highest peak is only 4154-feet.
    While the top 10 peaks in the Appalachians are 5500 feet to 6683, they are dome mountains, that look more like high hills or large mounds—not like any mountain that would give anyone an impression of their height being great—in fact, the range is listed as: “Low, gentle, easy, unchallenging hills, whose relative lack of height and ruggedness, leave their most important characteristic their extensive forest.”
    The Adirondacks have two peak over 5,000-feet (5344 and 5114), mostly everything else is 4012 to 4960-feet. The Adirondacks are in northeast New York, along the Vermont border, and again, not in McKane’s Land of Promise map.
    The Catskills have two peaks over 4000-feet (4180 and 4040), the rest are 3508 to 3980-feet. The Catskills are in southeastern New York, less than 100 miles from Manhattan, and not in McKane’s Land of Promise according to his maps.

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  18. continuing with the above)
    More importantly, the Appalachian peaks are not in New York: North Carolina has 6 (6 of the top 7 peaks are all in North Carolina, far from McKane’s Land of Promise), Virginia has 2, New Hampshire has 1, and Tennessee has 1, the latter being in McKane’s Land of Nephi, and the 8th tallest mountain in the range.

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  19. David, you wrote: “To a Nephite the term whos height is great is relative to where you live. To person who lives in Arizona the highest peak is in Arizona. If you live in Utah the highest peak you know of is in Utah. There are plenty of mountain ranges in north America. But you and iterry never did answer the question there is no verse in the Book of Mormon that states Zarahemla has mountains your misleading your readers”
    Response: I wonder who is misleading who. If you were to have asked a Nephite, then perhaps the idea of relativity might be accurate. However, those words of oh eight came from the Lord, who put them in the heart of Samuel the Lamanite to say, and if you have read the scriptural record of Samuel’s experience and his assignment from the Lord, you would know that. Now, we are talking about the Lord saying “whose height is great.” The Lord, as you might recall, organized this world, including the Himalayas and the Karakoram, the Rocky Mountains, the mountains in eastern United States, and the Andes in South America. He organized Mount Everest (29,029-feet) and K2 (28,251) as well as all the others. Now, he said “whose height is great,” not some individual who had never seen anything higher than the Appalachians, etc., like you are inferring. “Whose height is great” means just that—mountains whose height is very high—and in the entire Western Hemisphere, those would be the Andes, with some 200 peaks from 18,000 to 22,000 feet.

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  20. I’m really amazed with your posting skills as well as with the layout on your blog site. Is this a paid style or did you modify it yourself? Either way keep up the pleasant quality writing, it is rare to see a great site such as this one these days.
    GRE Training in Chennai

    ReplyDelete
  21. Del
    I go by what the scriptures say. Your trying to get a certain geographical area to fit the scriptures but it clearly doesn't.
    1)The notion that the west sea borders the land of Zarahemla and the Land of Nephi is not supported by scripture.
    We know that the East sea borders the Land of Nephi but if the Land of Nephi truly bordered the Pacific Ocean it would say so but it doesn’t say that.
    Helaman 50:8
    8 And the land of a Nephi did run
    in a straight course from the east
    sea to the west. (Describing the Land of Nephi west and east border it only mentions the East Sea)

    2) If Zarahemla bordered the west sea Hagoth could have launched from Zarahemla but in order to launch from the west sea Hagoth had to travel North. Don’t you see a problem with that he traveled North not west. See Alma 63.
    When the Lamanites retreat from Zarahemla they retreat North and West towards wilderness. The scriptures state the only thing west of Zarahemla is wilderness and Lamanites not a Sea. See Alma 2
    Alma 22:28
    Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness,
    and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on
    the west, in the land of Nephi; YEA, AND ALSO ON THE WEST OF THE LAND OF ZARAHEMLA,

    3) The scriptures point to the idea that the West Sea most southern point did not extend past much of Bountiful. When the Laminates get ready to attack bountiful it gives the indication that they are south of the West Sea. Alma 53:8
    8 And now it came to pass that the armies of the Lamanites, on the
    WEST SEA, SOUTH, while in the absence of Moroni on account of some intrigue
    amongst the Nephites, which caused dissensions amongst them, had gained some ground over the Nephites, yea, insomuch that they had obtained possession of a number
    of their cities in that part of the land.

    4) You state that Zarahemla is in the Land northward north of the Narrow Neck that is not what the scriptures say. The scriptures say Zarahemla is in the land southward south of the Narrow Neck.
    Ether 9:31
    31 And there came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of
    the land, and did poison many people. And it came to pass that their
    flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land
    SOUTHWARD, which was called by the NEPHITES ZARAHEMLA.
    Alma 22:32
    there being a SMALL NECK OF LAND BETWEEN the LAND NORTHWARD and the LAND SOUTHWARD.

    4) You state that Zarahemla has mountains and pointed to a couple of verses that stated the Gadianton warriors lived in a wilderness that had mountains. Nothing to do with Zarahemla. The other verse states that the city of moronihah got covered by a mountain before Christ visit. Once again it has nothing to do with Zarahemla. Hills and plains are mentioned more in the Book of Mormon then mountains are mentioned. The only people who lived in the mountains were robbers.

    5) The notion that the mountains mention in the Book of Mormon need to be a certain elevation to qualify as great is your opinion and your opinion only. We live in a day when we understand the mountain ranges and the elevation of their peaks. The Nephites were only aware of and could only compare the greatest of mountains that they knew of. The idea that the Andes mountains are the only mountains that qualify is ridiculous.

    6) You have no explanation for the migrating beast mentioned in the Book of Mormon (no migrating mammals in south America) and the Lamanites on the west part of the land of Nephi and Zarahemla who lived in TENTS (Tepees). There are no south American civilizations that lived-in tents.

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    Replies
    1. "Del
      I go by what the scriptures say. Your trying to get a certain geographical area to fit the scriptures but it clearly doesn't." Wow. Please apply this to yourself. Your theories make swiss cheese seem absolutely solid.

      Delete
    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    3. Seriously. Read his stuff. It will go along way towards making you less of a petulant and uninformed child. For example, his placement of the harbor Hagoth launched ships from makes perfect sense, as a protected inlet is a much better location to launch ships from that a bare coastline.

      Delete
  22. David, you need to consider that since everyone disagrees with you on this blog, that there may be some truth to their concerns.

    You quote Helaman 50:8 and your interpretation of it over and over and over-- as if this one scripture absolutely proves your point. How come you cannot see that Alma 22:27 does mention an East Sea?

    "...which [land of the Lamanites] was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the SEA EAST east even to the SEA WEST."

    And verse 32 furthermore contradicts your maps:

    "...and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were NEARLY SURROUNDED BY WATER, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward."

    In fact one of the biggest holes in your model is that the land Northward can be easily traveled to without using the Narrow Neck.

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    Replies
    1. They are surrounded by water if you look at my map the major borders are major rivers and shorelines but we know that the west side of Zarahemla was not shore lines it was wilderness occupied by lamanites who lived in tents

      Alma 22:28
      Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; YEA, AND ALSO ON THE WEST OF THE LAND OF ZARAHEMLA,

      When the Lamanites retreat from Zarahemla they retreat North and West towards wilderness. The scriptures state the only thing west of Zarahemla is wilderness and Lamanites not a Sea. See Alma 2

      Notice that del does not have a lamanites on the west of Zarahemla another major error

      Delete
    2. Hagoth could not launch from Zarahemla because on the west side was nothing but lamanites besides not having a shoreline to launch from.

      Del has shoreline west of Zarahemla no Lamanites.

      Alma 22:28
      Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; YEA, AND ALSO ON THE WEST OF THE LAND OF ZARAHEMLA,

      Delete
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  24. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  25. Del you place Zarahemla and Buntiful in the land Nortward according to scripture Zarahemla and Bountiful are in the Land southward seperated by Desolation by a narrow neck of land. You need to get your facts straight.

    31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and THE LAND SOUTHWARD WAS called Bountiful,

    Ether 9:31
    31 And there came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of the land, and did poison many people. And it came to pass that their flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land SOUTHWARD, which was called by the NEPHITES ZARAHEMLA.

    Alma 22:32
    there being a SMALL NECK OF LAND BETWEEN the LAND NORTHWARD and the LAND SOUTHWARD.

    Del you got a lot of fixing to do

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  26. David, your above comment is the type of thing that is so annoying. That scripture is about the Jaredites. For heaven's sake, can't you read a scripture an ever get it right?

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  27. DAVID: YOUR REDUNDANT AND REPETITIVE COMMENTS ARE NO LONGER WELCOME HERE SINCE THEY ADD NOTHING TO OUR OVERALL PURPOSE OF DISCUSSING THE SCRIPTURAL RECORD. YOUR 22 POSTS ON OUR BLOG IN ONE DAY WITH NOTHING BUT REPEATED ARGUMENTS THAT HAVE REPEATEDLY BEEN ANSWERED IS A DISTRACTION TO OUR READERS AND A WASTE OF TIME FOR US.

    IF YOU KEEP POSTING, WE WILL SIMPLY ERASE THEM. WHEN THE CURRENT SERIE ANSWERING YOUR COMMENTS IS CONCLUDED IN A FEW DAYS, WE WILL AGAIN LOOK AT YOUR COMMENTS—IF THEY ARE NEW MATERIAL, WE WILL RESPOND TO THEM, IF NOT, YOU WILL BE PERMANENTLY REMOVED FROM THIS BLOG AS AN ANNOYANCE

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  28. Michael Richardson: You wrote, ""Del
    I go by what the scriptures say. Your trying to get a certain geographical area to fit the scriptures but it clearly doesn't." Wow. Please apply this to yourself. Your theories make swiss cheese seem absolutely solid." Was that intended for me? If so, please elaborate.

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    Replies
    1. Del, The first part of that post was a quote of one of David's post. Starting at "Wow" is my response to his post.

      Delete
  29. Michael: I thought so but was just checking--like to answer everything I can.

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