Saturday, February 18, 2017

Answering a Reader’s Eastern U,S. Model – Part XIII: St Lawrence River

Continuing with David McKane’s comments on our blog and his maps and claimed area for the Land of Promise in the Great Lakes area. Over the past few weeks McKane has tried to dominate our blog with his comments, most of which are both erroneous and clear misunderstandings of the scriptural record, and the events that have and are taking place in South America as well as in his model area of the United States. 
    Continuing below with McKane’s many comments that are quite erroneous:
    McKane writes: “I think you are making stuff up…The term far northward is not used in the Book of Mormon.
Response: “…it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed” (Alma 22:30, emphasis added) 
    My friend, when you have spent as many hours studying the scriptural record of the Book of Mormon as I have, you will find 1) I do not misquote scriptures, and 2) I do not make things up. I use Mormon, Nephi, Jacob, Moroni and others’ exact words, and rather than simply give a reference, almost always I copy and paste the scripture from the Book of Mormon directly into the blog so the reader can see that it what the scripture says, not what I am saying.
    Perhaps on other blogs, or among your friends, you are in the habit of saying what you want or think, but on a serious blog such as this, which is based solely upon the scriptural record, ignorance (a lack of knowledge) is not at all useful. We might disagree on some things and that is to be expected, but before criticizing someone, you might at least want to look up what is being said rather than rely upon a faulty memory, or upon your opinions, which seem quite often to be far from the scriptural record.
    Mckane writes: “Apacha and lamas are not horses.”
    Response: Alpaca and Llamas are certainly not horses—they are camelids, which, if you had read anything at all in this blog would know we have made that distinction quite clear. On the other hand, the Llama can do almost everything a horse can do and a lot more and had far greater value than a horse to an ancient culture. That is why Moroni wrote: “And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms” (Ether 9:19, emphasis added).
In McKane’s narrow neck, a great city would have to be built by the Falls—yet no mention of one of the great wonders of the worldsurely Mormon and Moroni would have mentioned their existence if he were in this land of Niagara

    McKane writes: “A great Jaredite city is next to the narrow neck of land that divides the south from the north. “And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land” (Ether 10:20) Iit's clear the Jaredites were on the border between the land northward and southward, 
    Response: That is correct. On the other hand, as iterry pointed out in responding to your comment, “where is that city near your narrow neck by Niagara falls? There isn't any and the scriptures are clear that they lived North of the narrow neck and you quoted them so you are aware of them even though you ignore them.” One would obviously think, if the Jaredites had been in this land as McKane claims, Moroni would have written: "And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land and the great waters fall," or something like that.
    Yet,  not a mention of these Great Falls is given and the most obvious reason is that the  Jaredites were not in this land, nor the Nephites later. This is especilly pointed out in there being no remains of a great city around the Falls area, in McKane's narrow neck of land.

    However, in South America, we can show the exact area of such a city in their stone ruins. But there is no such thing in your model area, and a “great city” would not disappear over the time involved.
    Mckane writes: “South America having elephants dating to the time of the Book of Mormon is nonexistent.”
    Response: More of McKane's wild, erroneous comments. Look at our earlier blog showing where and when elephant remains were found in South America, which was before the Spanish arrived (who did not bring elephants by the way) and after the so-called period of extinction that anthropologists claim, i.e., during the time of man in the area.
    Mckane writes: “If the Jaredites were "far northward " as you say. Show me in scripture instead of unfounded statements.”
    Response: If you mean where the Jaredites occupied the land, or where they died and their bones were found by Limhi’s 43-man expedition. If the latter, then: “And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken” (Alma 22:30, emphasis added). 
   You keep asking for answers, which we give over and over again, but you never acknowledge that you were wrong. Interesting. There is nothing to gain by continuing to spout the same mantra over and over again and expecting a different answer.
The same would be true for saying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

    It is becoming more and more apparent that you take great liberties with the scriptural record, deciding on your own what certain verses mean when the meaning is quite the opposite. While at this blog we do not make unfounded statements, though there is not always room enough to give every reference as we have stated several times here. The term “so far northward” is easy enough to find with a global search of the Book of Mormon, that you make such mistakes on matters of this kind is indicative of 1) a lack of effort, or 2) a lack of knowledge, or 3) a lack of interest in something different than your opinion--it is as though you throw something out to see if it will stick on the wall and if it doesn't you throw something else out there. In any event, scriptures are not for private interpretation. In the Book of Mormon Land of Promise matters:
1. When Mormon tells us that the land where the hill Cumorah is (where the many bones of the Jaredites were found) that it was so far northward of the Land of Desolation and you claim it was in the Land Southward or to the south of the Land of Desolation, you show your lack of knowledge and understanding, and your lack of credibility of being a serious researching, historian, and scholar of the Book of Mormon fades from existence;
2 When you claim the entire Book of Mormon does not have a statement of “so far northward,” and it does, you again show your lack of knowledge and understanding;
3. When you claim there are six seas, with the Sea East and the East Sea, or the Sea West and the West Sea being different seas, or four in all, contrary to the way any ancient culture, but especially the Hebrews, named directional locations, you again show your lack of knowledge and understanding;
4. When you say that “Some Jaredites lived in the land southward,” when Moroni abridging Ether tells us just the opposite, that they did not live or occupy the Land Southward, but retained it as an animal preserve for hunting, you again show your lack of knowledge and understanding;
5. When you say that some Jaredites went into the Land Southward as they followed the animals killed by the poisonous serpents, devouring them all along the way, you misunderstand that only live animals got through the narrow neck, and when sufficient for the Lord’s plan had passed through, he stopped the poisonous serpents from following and “hedged up the way” (Ether 9:33). At no time does it suggest that any Jaredites, devouring the dead animals, made it through the narrow neck into the Land Southward. To suggest any did is pure speculation. In addition, “And it came to pass that the people did follow the course of the beasts, and did devour the carcasses of them which fell by the way, until
they had devoured them all” (Ether 9:34), which should suggest that these Jaredites were in the Land Northward following the animals toward the narrow neck, and those that were killed by the poisonous serpents, were devoured, every one—there is nothing to suggest there were dead animals in the Land Southward, i.e., that were killed to the south of the narrow neck since the Lord stopped the serpents from going into that land (Ether 9:33).

    And in matters of general knowledge:
    “The Jaredites arriving in Lake Ontario via the St. Lawrence seaway.” However, the St. Lawrence Seaway is a man-made canal and lock system that opened in 1959. Prior to that event, the “virtually impassable” Lachine Rapids kept any kind of ship from sailing beyond Montreal before 1825 when the Lachine Canal was built. There is no possibility that either Nephi’s ship could have sailed beyond Montreal in 600 B.C. and impossible to consider that the Jaredite barges went up the river against currents and winds, let alone past the rapids.
The St. Lawrence River has always been unnavigatable past (west) of Montreal because of the Lachine Rapids that were not bypassed until the 19th century

    The St. Lawrence River began about 6,000 years ago and has remained unchanged until the Seaway was created, involving a ten mile canal dug around the rapids, three seaway dams and five locks, which replaced the 22 locks that had been previously built. 5 locks raise a ship from the river height at Montreal to Lake Ontario, a difference of 246 feet in elevation (no ship can sail from one elevation to another elevation in a single water system with a difference of 246 feet, it is impossible without locks—the difference between Lake Ontario and Lake Erie is a whopping 571 feet.
    Obviously, while McKane can say “The Jaredites arriving in Lake Ontario via the St. Lawrence seaway,” however, the impossibility of that occurring is well known among anyone with knowledge of the St. Lawrence River and the Great Lakes.
(See the next post, ”Answering a Reader – Part XIV,” for more information on David McKane’s model around the Great Lakes of his Land of Promise and our responses to his comments on our blog)

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