Tuesday, February 7, 2017

Answering a Reader’s Eastern U.S. Model – Part II: The Map Without Error - Part II

Continuing with David McKane’s many comments left on this blog, and specifically below the continuation of the 17 errors on his “errorless maps.
Also shown in the previous post
11. On another of McKane’s maps (Map C), he has the east wilderness and Lamanite occupation to the east of his Sea East and East Sea.
    Response: Nowhere in the entire Book of Mormon are there any descriptions, suggestions, or comments leading one to think that there is  any land to the east of the Sea East—not one! Therefore to claim a location of anything to the east of the Sea East is unsupportable and without merit and certainly a discrepancy to the scriptural record.
    Mormon tells us of the Land of Nephi (the Lamanite king’s territory throughout which a proclamation was being sent): “which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round-about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west -- and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided” (Alma 22:27, emphasis added to show the extent of the Lamanite territory).
 Circumventing the Narrow Neck would not be difficult at all. The Lamanites, as shown here, could have taken either or both of the alternate routes into the Land Northward to bypass the Narrow Neck or Narrow Passage in McKane’s model map

    In such s case, Mormon’s words, “Therefore the Lamanites could have no more possessions only in the land of Nephi, and the wilderness round about. Now this was wisdom in the Nephites -- as the Lamanites were an enemy to them, they would not suffer their afflictions on every hand, and also that they might have a country whither they might flee, according to their desires“ (Alma 22:34) would be meaningless.
12. The Narrow Neck and/or Narrow Passage are not the only paths into the Land Northward.
    Despite Mormon making it very clear that the Land Northward could only be reached through the Narrow Neck and Narrow Passage, in his case both being the same place, McKane’s location shows a simple matter of circumventing that narrow way and going around it, as any military group would have done to reach their unobstructed objective.
13. On still another McKane map (Map D), he places the New York Hopewell Indians to the east of Lake Erie (Sea East) and Lake Ontario (East Sea), though on still another map (Map E) he claims this is Lamanite lands (wilderness).
This is either Lamanite lands or Nephite lands, it cannot be both.

However, on yet another map (Map F), he labels the area to the east as the “Borders of Nephites Apalachian mountains,” suggesting this is not Lamanite lands after all.
14. Again, on Map D, he places the Havana Hopewell and Trempeleau Hopewell Indians, which he identifies as Nephites, in the lands to the west of Lake Michigan (West Sea), though on another map (Map E) he claims this area is Lamanite Lands (West Wilderness);
    Again, this is either Lamanite lands or Nephite lands, it cannot be both.
15. Launching a ship from the Land Southward at the Narrow Neck of Land would be into the waters to the North, you call the Sea West.
    Since building exceedingly large ships would be very costly, especially for a small sailing venture on an inland lake, it is highly unlikely that Hagoth would have built such ships in McKane’s scenario, especially since sailing northward from the narrow neck in McKane’s Land of Promise would allow Hagoth’s ships to travel only up Lake Huron or into Georgian Bay, which has 30,000 island and hardly a place for a sailing ship “driven before the wind” (if it was built like Nephi’s ship) to maneuver.
In addition, Georgian Bay, a calm fresh-water lake, and northern Lake Huron all flow toward the south (ships need to use several locks to be lifted from Lake Ontario to Georgian Bay, which, along with the canal were completed in 1918-1920, though with the emergence of power-boats, was no longer needed), making headway for a sailing ship that much more difficult, especially with the winds on these waters.
16. Hagoth had a Posterity that occupied the lands of Canada to the northwest of Lake Superior.
On another purely speculative idea, on a map area (white circle and arrow) you label "Posterity of Hagoth," there is absolutely no scriptural reference to such a people or place. There is simply no suggestion in the Book of Mormon that Hagoth had a posterity, let alone that they occupied a part of the Land of Promise. What we know about Hagoth is that he was a curious man who built exceedingly large ships (Alma 63:5), nothing more! To create a history for the man and a land area attributed to his posterity is worse than speculation, it is fallacious. Besides, neither Hagoth, nor any of his family or descendants went northward on the ships he built as far as it is known from the scriptural record.
17. Florida is the landing site of the Lehi Colony.
    Response: McKane places this in the area along the coast of Hernando or Citrus counties, which in an overall view of his Land of Promise territory, is toward the east instead of the west seashore, and so far from his West Sea it is hard to imagine, though he tries to compensate for this by claiming that an area covering 4½ states, an area about 600 miles across and 200 miles north to south, or about 120,000 square miles, which is an unbelievably large area, stretching almost as wide as his entire Land of Nephi—an area only about a 100 miles greater in width. This doesn’t sound anything like Mormon’s description of the area: “in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers' first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore” (Alma 22:28). One can only wonder what his “narrow strip of wilderness” across those 4½ states would be like and where it is located.
18. His narrow strip of wilderness is north of the Sea East and runs along the Sea West (hard to tell if it runs to the Sea East from the map).
Response: It is also interesting that McKane places the narrow passage through the area of the Niagara Falls, which is nowhere near his Land of Nephi, yet Mormon makes it quite clear where that narrow strips of wilderness was located: “amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west -- and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided” (Alma 22:27).
Based on Mormon’s comments, the narrow strip of wilderness should be ) (large white line with narrow red line) between the Land of Zarahemla (top circle) and the Land of Nephi (bottom circle; however, that is not where McKane places his narrow strip. There is also no West Sea border of either the Land of Zarahemla or the Land of Nephi

    Now for a map no one has ever found any discrepancies with, and McKane claims there ar no errors with, we’ve showed numerous examples of his own maps to show that they do not agree in hardly anything with the scriptural record—what our readers have been telling him quite effectively for the past few weeks.
(See the next post, “Answering a Reader’s Eastern U.S. Model – Part III: The Six Seas,” for a continuation of evaluating McKane’s maps)

25 comments:

  1. Del,

    All of the Heartland models follow David’s basic model. So your critique fits most of those models. David’s model has morphed into a multi-headed monster however with multiple seas east and west and multiple narrow necks/passage ways which is not scriptual supported at all. But the basic criticism still applies to the general Heartland model.

    This should be a lesson to all LDS to simply read and apply the scriptures to whatever you do. Read them and understand what they are saying and not read into something that isn't there.

    This has been a very worthwhile task Del and a masterful work. I look forward to reading more. Thanks

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  2. Del is not the only one that reads the scriptures and sees problems with David's model. Many have made maps based just on what the Book of Mormon says and every one of these maps totally contradict David's model.

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  4. erichard - I know the Meso-American crowd (BYU) has done work debunking the Heartland model. Are there others?

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  5. Here are some maps just based on the BM text:

    http://emp.byui.edu/HAYESR/papers/map2_files/image003.jpg

    http://www.mormonhaven.com/bomgeog.htm

    http://www.byubookstore.com/webitemimages/439/9786206300076.jpg

    https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/sites/default/files/knowhy-img/mormonsmap.jpg

    http://www.bmaf.org/files/image/Hypoth_%20map1.jpg

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    1. Thanks erichard - I'll check them out.

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  6. Heres what I have to say About Moroni clearing out the east Wilderness.

    I will be using the Hopewell mound fortifications found in New York State and Pennsylvania for archeological evidence for the fortifications described in Alma Chapter 50 and refortified in Alma Chapter 52. E.G Sqiuer and Charles Whitney described these fortifications before many of the sites were destroyed by farmers and settlers in the 18th and 19the century. First is a visual description of as described in the Book of Mormon and a comparison between Charles Whitney and E.G Squiers descriptions.




    Moroni needs to prepare the Nephite territories from consistent attacks by the Lamanites. One area in particular needs particular attention that would be the east wilderness. Through the Niagra isthmus the Lamanites would have access to the Land Northward Bountiful and Jershon. Moroni (Alma Chapter 50) clears out the Lamanites from the east wilderness and has the Nephites occupy the land and build fortifications. Moroni (Alma Chapter 52) refortifies the area from attack.











    7 And it came to pass that Moroni caused that his armies should go forth into the east wilderness; yea, and they went forth and drove all the Lamanites who were in the east wilderness into their own lands, which were south of the land of Zarahemla.


    9 And it came to pass that when Moroni had driven all the Lamanites out of the east wilderness, which was north of the lands of their own possessions, he caused that the inhabitants who were in the land of Zarahemla and in the land round about should go forth into the east wilderness, even to the borders by the seashore, and possess the land.


    10 And he also placed armies on the south, in the borders of their possessions, and caused them to erect fortifications that they might secure their armies and their people from the hands of their enemies.


    Alma 52


    9 And he also sent orders unto him that he should fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward, lest the Lamanites should obtain that point and should have power to harass them on every side.


    These are the descriptions of the fortifications that the Nephites built





    Concerning this line of fortifications Charles Whittlesey said: That they formed a well occupied line, constructed either to protect the advance of a nation landing from the lake (Lake Erie) and moving southward for conquest; or, a line of resistance for a people inhabiting these shores and pressed upon by their southern neighbors. (Quoted in R. Silverberg, Mound Builders of Ancient America, p. 116.)





    E.G Sqier stated: System of Defenses extending from the sources of the Allegheny and Susquehanna in New York, diagonally across the country, through central and northern Ohio, to the Wabash. (Ancient Monuments, p. 44.)





    Charles second description for the reasoning behind these fortifications matches the reasoning for Moroni to build these fortifications. The Lamanites attacked from the areas south of these fortifications or the lower part of New York state. Moroni secured the land northward and a second entry in the land Bountiful.

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  8. David - here again you do not believe nor follow the BOM - you lost the debate. Your model in no way can be matched to the BOM. Give it up man. There is no reason to debate because Del has completely destroyed your model. You need a new hobby - BOM lands certainly isn't one for you.

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  9. I have Hagoth Launching from the west sea (Lake Michigan)not Sea west (Lake Huron) as described in the Book of Mormon

    http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/alma-chapter-63-bom-map.html

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  10. Showing Hagoth landed on the north side of the Great Lakes is proven by science. The native americans in Cananda of the largest concentration of Middle east dna. See haplo group x map

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)#/media/File:Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA).PNG

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  11. Concerning lamanite wilderness being north of Zarahemla.

    Alma 22:27 states that there is wilderness north of Zarahemla.
    “and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla,”
    Alma 2 shows that this wilderness is occupied by Lamanites.
    The Nephites on the North border of Zarahemla east of the River Sidon battle with the Amlacites. The Almacites are joined by “a numerous host of the Lamanites” (Alma 2:24). The Amalictes and lamanites are described “as being as numerous almost, as it were, as the sands of the sea” Alma 2:27.
    Alma 2:36 verifies that this Lamanite wilderness is north of Zarahemla is when the Lamanites retreat North and West from Zarahemla.
    Alma 2:36 “And they fled before the Nephites towards the wilderness which was west and north”
    The name of the Lamanite wilderness North and west of Zarahemla is Hermounts
    Alma 2:37 “until they were scattered on the west, and on the north, until they had reached the wilderness, which was called Hermounts”

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  12. The east wilderness was occupied by lamanites until it was cleared out by the Nephites see Alma 50 and Alma 52

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  13. As far as the Nephites and lamanites being west of the West Sea (Lake Michigan) I think the Nephites occupied this area after Christ visit and there being 200 years of peace with no difference in Lamanites and Nephites.

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  14. Your model has been completely destroyed David. You are delusional.

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  15. my model still stands its in America.

    See D&C 54:8

    8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

    Joseph Smith stated that the lamanite land along with scripture is in North America.
    LETTER PENNED BY JOSEPH SMITH TO EMMA DURRING ZION’S CAMP MARCH WHICH TRAVELED FROM EASTERN OHIO THROUGH ILLINOIS TO MISOURI. JUNE 4, 1834.
    “The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, all serves to pass away time unnoticed.” (The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1984), p 324 in care of Community of Christ church)
    ONE MONTH BEFORE JOSEPH’S MARTYRDOM HE TAUGHT THE LAMANITES. MAY 23, 1844
    “1PM held council with the Indians Sac & Fox in my back kitchen. I replied….Great Spirit wants you to be united and live in peace. (I) found a book, (presenting the Book of Mormon) which told me about your fathers and Great Spirit told me you must send to all the tribes you can, and tell them to live in peace, and when any of our people come to see you treat them as we treat you.” (Joseph Smith Diary entry, Thursday, May 23rd, 1844)

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  16. You never did answer my questions. Like what migrating beast are located in South America wheat, barley, etc etc

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  17. David - your model has been destroyed you haven't and can't answer even one question that Del has poised because the BOM is clear. You are delusional and a coward. Take your venomous attacks to your own blog. Nothing you say needs any reply.

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  18. David you wrote: “Concerning lamanite wilderness being north of Zarahemla. Alma 22:27 states that there is wilderness north of Zarahemla. “and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla.”
    Response: David, Mormon’s words do not say “the wilderness was north of Zarahemla,” those are your words. This is the type of errors you continually make and it clouds both your judgement as well as your ability to understand more than you are thinking. The words: “on the north by the land of Zarahemla,” is not the same as “there is a wilderness north of Zarahemla.” Surely, you understand the difference in these two statements—the former being in the scriptural record and the latter being your words. They are simply not the same. And if you cannot understand that, then you have no business trying to explain to others what is meant in the scriptural record of the Book of Mormon.
    The point of Mormon’s comment, which is part of his insertion of explanation, must be taken in view of the overall purpose of Mormon’s writing. Keep in mind that Mormon is describing for us, his future readers, the location of the Lamanite king’s domain, or the Land of Nephi, the Lamanite lands. In that context, he is telling us that the Land of Nephi is separated from the Land of Zarahemla (Nephite controlled lands) by a narrow strip of wilderness, and that this wilderness “ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore.” This means, should you not understand, that this wilderness ran between the two lands of Nephi and Zarahemla, from sea to sea, and then curved (the meaning of “round about”) upward when it reached the seashore toward the north BY THE LAND OF ZARAHEMLA. “By the land” means “near” the land. That is the border of the wilderness was on the north BY THE LAND OF ZARAHEMLA.
    Your problem in not understanding the simple and precise language of Mormon is that you are so intent on proving yourself right that you do not pay attention to the meaning of words—which any scholar must do if he is to understand the words written in the past.
    Though you try, you cannot change Mormon’s words. In 1828 when Joseph Smith translated the word “by” that word meant “near, close,” and today, the word “by” means “near to or next to.”
    The word has not changed over time. Its origin is Old English and comes from Germanic origin, and comes from the word “bi” which means “around, about” and the Old Saxon and Frisian “near.”
    “By” does not mean “beyond” or “to” or anything else that could place Mormon’s comment to mean the wilderness was north of Zarahemla.
    (continuing below)

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  19. (continued from above)
    Take as another example, David, your comment above “As far as the Nephites and lamanites being west of the West Sea (Lake Michigan) I think the Nephites occupied this area after Christ visit and there being 200 years of peace with no difference in Lamanites and Nephites.”
    The key words here are “I think,” which shows another of your errors. There is nothing in the scriptural record to suggest such a thought. You have it to support your viewpoint, which is in error, or certainly not consistent to the scriptural record. Somehow you don’t seem to grasp Paul’s comment: that the scriptures are not for personal interpretation. Mormon makes no suggestion of this whatsoever. The fact that the early Church was sent into the lands to the west of the Saints at the time, called Indian Lands, to preach by directive of the Lord is not connected in any way to your placing Lamanites and anything else to the west of the West Wilderness in the scriptural record. That is strictly your opinion—your speculation. You can have whatever opinion you want, but do not claim it is part of the scriptural record, part of the Land of Promise, and part of Mormon’s writing.
    Your further comment: “My model still stands its in America” and you quote D&C 54:8, which has nothing to do with the Land of Promise. By the time of the early Church (1830s), 1445 years after the fall of the Nephites and 1409 years after the close of the Moroni’s record, the Lamanites had spread far and wide, including into North America, where Joseph Smith found Zelph’s corpse and wrote to his wife about—of course the Lamanites were all around. They went north in Hagoth’s ships, settled in Mesoamerica, and eventually traveled northward into North America. Several prophets and General Authorities have commented about the entire Western Hemisphere being the Land of Promise.
    It is also of interest to me that though I asked one thing of you in response to my answer all your questions and comments, which is not taking place and will do so for several more days, for your to wait until this is finished before you start your responses, you could not do that. Here you write a ton of information not related to the overall answers to your comments. David, your point of view of a single issue or two is irrelevant to the overall weight of all the errors your map and comments express.
    Do yourself a favor and stop getting hung up on a single idea, and look at the overall OVERWHELMING evidence against your point of view, and not just by me but by several others who had read your indefensible point of view. But at least wait until all the information is in against your point of view to see if you can honestly and legitimately dig yourself out from under it.
    For Pete’s sake, David, just wait until all of my answers you requested have been stated before you start popping off again. Pay attention to the scriptural record instead of your own misguided opinions.

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  20. You assumptions made out D&C 54:8 are completely wrong. Zelph according to the vision that Joseph Smith had fought in the last battles of the Nephites and Lamanites. He was killed in battle in Illinois 4000 miles away from were you think the last battles happened.

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  21. The revelation that Joseph received gives no indication he was part of hagoth voyage. Those people were never heard of again. But yet zelph died in the last battles between nephites and lamanites in Illinois. Were you say hagoth landed and were zelph was killed in battle is separated by over 2000 miles.

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  22. DAVID: YOUR REDUNDANT AND REPETITIVE COMMENTS ARE NO LONGER WELCOME HERE SINCE THEY ADD NOTHING TO OUR OVERALL PURPOSE OF DISCUSSING THE SCRIPTURAL RECORD. YOUR 22 POSTS ON OUR BLOG IN ONE DAY WITH NOTHING BUT REPEATED ARGUMENTS THAT HAVE REPEATEDLY BEEN ANSWERED IS A DISTRACTION TO OUR READERS AND A WASTE OF TIME FOR US.

    IF YOU KEEP POSTING, WE WILL SIMPLY ERASE THEM. WHEN THE CURRENT SERIE ANSWERING YOUR COMMENTS IS CONCLUDED IN A FEW DAYS, WE WILL AGAIN LOOK AT YOUR COMMENTS—IF THEY ARE NEW MATERIAL, WE WILL RESPOND TO THEM, IF NOT, YOU WILL BE PERMANENTLY REMOVED FROM THIS BLOG AS AN ANNOYANCE

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