Continuing below with more on his belief of only one Cumorah and its location:
McKane: “And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book!”
Mormon,
and that came from the plates Joseph Smith obtained from the New York hill they
called Cumorah after the plates were found there. It has nothing to do with
this hill Cumorah in upstate Western New York as being the only hill Cumorah or
where the Nephites were annihilated—just the place where Joseph Smith obtained
the plates.
Pressing his Cumorah issue, Mckane writes: “Cumorah is not far north of Desolation. Cumorah was not controlled by the Nephites it was controlled by the Lamanites. That's why Mormon has to ask permission to enter the land Cumorah. You are ignoring the scriptures”
Response: First of all, the scriptural record does not say Mormon wrote to the Lamanite King to obtain permission to enter his land or the Land Southward--that is simply McKane's speculation and opinion! Second, as stated in the last article in answer to one of your comments, you place the hill Cumorah in the Land Southward, beyond the narrow neck and pass, and that Mormon had to take his Nephite army south into Lamanite lands. Now, here, you claim Cumorah is not far north of Desolation.
Forgetting the words “not far,” let’s deal with north of Desolation. That is what we have been saying and what Mormon wrote: “And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken…Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful…” (Alma 22:30-32). So there can be no question that north of the narrow neck of land, was the Land of Desolation.
Mormon then adds: “the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken” (Alma 22:30). Thus, north of the Land of Desolation was the land where the Jaredites were destroyed, and that would have been around the hill Ramah, which Moroni tells us was the same hill as Cumorah, where the Nephites were destroyed (Ether 9:3).
Mormon
goes on to say: “And it came to pass
that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents
around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and
fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites. And when
three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all
the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah” (Mormon 6:4-5).
Thus we can say without a doubt that the Land Northward was the Land of Desolation, and going north, the Land of Many Waters and the land of Cumorah!
McKane writes: “All the Book of Mormon Maps get Cumorah wrong except one. The six Sea model.”
Response: He means his own model. So, despite Mormon telling us otherwise, McKane insists that his map is correct
McKane: “Mormon makes it clear that Cumorah was controlled by Lamanites when he asked permission for him and his people to enter Cumorah.”
Response: No, that is not what Mormon says--nothing in the scriptural record verifies he is asking permission to cross through Lamanite lands. However, Mormon does make it clear that he wanted the Lamanites to 1) agree to meet on the battlefield at Cumorah, and 2) allow the Nephites time to gather in all their outflung people and armies, which were scattered in several cities (Mormon 5:4). Mormon even makes it clear that this second point was the main reason for his writing when he wrote to the Lamanite king: “desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah” (Mormon 6:2, emphasis added).
The permission requested is “to gather in our people,” not to pass through Lamanite lands to Cumorah.
McKane writes: “Del isn't the only one who makes this error.”
Response:
The error is Mckane’s who tries to make something out of nothing to prove his
point tnat, to him, verifies his belief. Mormon isn’t writing to gain permission to travel through
Lamanite-controlled land or he would have given some indication of that. But Mormon, who wrote the
king, wrte on the Plates that his purpose iof his request was to gather in all his people.
McKane writes regarding a reader’s comment: “These verses do nothing to disprove Mormon 6:2 showing the Nephites went to the Lamanites in the south country. When the Nephites retreat the Lamanites took control of the south countries.”
Response: In Mormon 6:2 there is a footnoted date of 385 A.D., this is 35 years after the Treaty in 350 A.D. (Mormon 2:28), in which the Lamanites were given all of the Land Southward. After 350 A.D., the Lamanites and all the battles fought, were in the Land Northward, with the Lamanites controlling more and more of the Land Northward, though always to the south of the Nephites. However, at the time Mormon writes his letter to the Lamanite king, the Nephites were scattered over a fairly large area, controlling and defending several cities (Mormon 5:40). Obviously, there were some Lamanites in the vicinity of these various Nephite groups, very possibly with several of the cities under siege. Mormon wants all his people in one place to fight this major battle that he is arranging at Cumorah, and wants the Lamaniate king to allow his people to travel from these various places without being attacked.
Their travel destination was to the north to where Cumorah was located!
McKane writes: “The Nephites occupied south countries and north countries not until that verse [Mormon 6:2] did they lose control of all the south countries.”
Response: The Nephites lost control of everything south—all the south countries—and everything in the Land Southward 35 years before that verse, i.e., which was dated about 385 A.D., 35 years after they lost control of the south countries in the treaty that granted the Lamanites all the land southward of the narrow neck!
McKane writes: “And it came to pass that I did cause my people that they should gather themselves together at the land Desolation, to a city which was in the borders, by the narrow pass which led into the land southward (Mormon 3:5). The Nephites were right next to the south country and the narrow pass.”
Response:
This is not where the Nephites were located when Mormon wrote the letter to the Lamanite king. Between 3:5, which is 360 A.D., and 6:2, which is 385 A.D., (25
years between) the Nephites had retreated further and further into the Land Northward.
By the time Mormon writes, they have lost many battles, including the cities at
the pass, which was Desolation (Mormon 4:2,13), and also Teancum (Mormon 4:14),
the city of Boaz (Mormon 4:20-21), and several other towns and villages (Mormon
4:22)—in fact the Lamanites were poised to overthrow the entire land (Mormon
4:23). They lost the city of Jordan, and fled before the Lamanites, of which
Mormon did not write further on the Plates of the Nephite defeats (Mormon 5:8).
(See the next post, ”Answering a Reader – Part XIII,” for more information on David Mckane’s model around the Great Lakes of his Land of Promise and our responses to his comments on our blog)
Pressing his Cumorah issue, Mckane writes: “Cumorah is not far north of Desolation. Cumorah was not controlled by the Nephites it was controlled by the Lamanites. That's why Mormon has to ask permission to enter the land Cumorah. You are ignoring the scriptures”
Response: First of all, the scriptural record does not say Mormon wrote to the Lamanite King to obtain permission to enter his land or the Land Southward--that is simply McKane's speculation and opinion! Second, as stated in the last article in answer to one of your comments, you place the hill Cumorah in the Land Southward, beyond the narrow neck and pass, and that Mormon had to take his Nephite army south into Lamanite lands. Now, here, you claim Cumorah is not far north of Desolation.
Forgetting the words “not far,” let’s deal with north of Desolation. That is what we have been saying and what Mormon wrote: “And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken…Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful…” (Alma 22:30-32). So there can be no question that north of the narrow neck of land, was the Land of Desolation.
Mormon then adds: “the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken” (Alma 22:30). Thus, north of the Land of Desolation was the land where the Jaredites were destroyed, and that would have been around the hill Ramah, which Moroni tells us was the same hill as Cumorah, where the Nephites were destroyed (Ether 9:3).
Thus we can say without a doubt that the Land Northward was the Land of Desolation, and going north, the Land of Many Waters and the land of Cumorah!
McKane writes: “All the Book of Mormon Maps get Cumorah wrong except one. The six Sea model.”
Response: He means his own model. So, despite Mormon telling us otherwise, McKane insists that his map is correct
McKane: “Mormon makes it clear that Cumorah was controlled by Lamanites when he asked permission for him and his people to enter Cumorah.”
Response: No, that is not what Mormon says--nothing in the scriptural record verifies he is asking permission to cross through Lamanite lands. However, Mormon does make it clear that he wanted the Lamanites to 1) agree to meet on the battlefield at Cumorah, and 2) allow the Nephites time to gather in all their outflung people and armies, which were scattered in several cities (Mormon 5:4). Mormon even makes it clear that this second point was the main reason for his writing when he wrote to the Lamanite king: “desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah” (Mormon 6:2, emphasis added).
The permission requested is “to gather in our people,” not to pass through Lamanite lands to Cumorah.
McKane writes: “Del isn't the only one who makes this error.”
McKane writes regarding a reader’s comment: “These verses do nothing to disprove Mormon 6:2 showing the Nephites went to the Lamanites in the south country. When the Nephites retreat the Lamanites took control of the south countries.”
Response: In Mormon 6:2 there is a footnoted date of 385 A.D., this is 35 years after the Treaty in 350 A.D. (Mormon 2:28), in which the Lamanites were given all of the Land Southward. After 350 A.D., the Lamanites and all the battles fought, were in the Land Northward, with the Lamanites controlling more and more of the Land Northward, though always to the south of the Nephites. However, at the time Mormon writes his letter to the Lamanite king, the Nephites were scattered over a fairly large area, controlling and defending several cities (Mormon 5:40). Obviously, there were some Lamanites in the vicinity of these various Nephite groups, very possibly with several of the cities under siege. Mormon wants all his people in one place to fight this major battle that he is arranging at Cumorah, and wants the Lamaniate king to allow his people to travel from these various places without being attacked.
Their travel destination was to the north to where Cumorah was located!
McKane writes: “The Nephites occupied south countries and north countries not until that verse [Mormon 6:2] did they lose control of all the south countries.”
Response: The Nephites lost control of everything south—all the south countries—and everything in the Land Southward 35 years before that verse, i.e., which was dated about 385 A.D., 35 years after they lost control of the south countries in the treaty that granted the Lamanites all the land southward of the narrow neck!
McKane writes: “And it came to pass that I did cause my people that they should gather themselves together at the land Desolation, to a city which was in the borders, by the narrow pass which led into the land southward (Mormon 3:5). The Nephites were right next to the south country and the narrow pass.”
(See the next post, ”Answering a Reader – Part XIII,” for more information on David Mckane’s model around the Great Lakes of his Land of Promise and our responses to his comments on our blog)
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