Saturday, February 11, 2017

Answering a Reader's Eastern U.S. Model – Part VI: Mountains, Whose Height is Great – Part II

Continuing from the last post in which we discussed several instances of the Gadianton Robbers occupying mountains in the Land of Zarahemla and how the Nephites were unable to eradicate them from their mountain hideouts. We might want to keep in mind that if these were hills of the kind that David McKane claims exist in the east under the guise of mountains, the tallest of which in the Land of Zarahemla is under 2000 feet, it would not be difficult to locate and find their hideouts. If one has ever driven through these mountains, as I have done, you would find they are basically rolling mountains, which is defined as “having gentle rising and falling slopes; undulating: rolling country.” Gentle mountains are described as “gradual slopes, with no steep slopes or sudden change in direction,” and “rolling” are described as “Rolling land with gentle slopes continuing for a long distance.
The low-lying, rolling Catskill Mountains in New York: The closest mountains to McKane’s Land of Promise and far east of his Land of Zarahemla
 
    The mountains east of the Mississippi are generally referred to as gently rolling mountains, or, like the Catskills, a mature dissected plateau (Appalachian Plateau), a once-flat region subsequently uplifted and eroded by watercourses, and are like the Kittatinny Mountain in New Jersey and the Blue Mountains in Pennsylvania, with the Poconos a continuation of the Catskills under a different name—however, both of these, and all those mountains of any height in the east are not within the Land of Zarahemla or Bountiful or the Land Northward of McKane’s Land of Promise map.
    In addition, the Catskills decline gradually in height and grade into the plateau in the West.
    It is interesting that David McKane uses the argument that height is relative when it comes to mountains and Samuel’s language. When Samuel said mountains would rise up out of valleys “whose height is great,” the term great is both unnecessary and misleading if he was talking about a rise of only 1979-feet, or 1237-feet. That would require a comment of “mountains would rise from valleys,” not “whose height is great.”
    Also, words have meaning.
• The word “height” means: “the measurement from base to top.” Thus we are talking about the summit (peak) of a mountain and how high it is.
• The word “great” means: “of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average.
    So what would have been “normal” or “average” to the Nephites in the height of mountains?
    To understand this, we need to keep in mind that judging a mountain after 34 A.D. is not a stand-alone idea—the Nephites had mountains before that time, and they were sufficiently high enough to “tumble down” or, as Nephi stated upon seeing their destruction: “I saw mountains tumbling into pieces” (1 Nephi 12:4). Now “tumble” means to “roll down violently, to fall.” And into “piece” means “fragment, part of,” and in the plural, means “several fragments, or several parts.” Thus, the mountains the Nephites knew had broken up violently into numerous fragments and thrown down—as Samuel states it; the mountains were “laid low, like unto a valley” (Helaman 14:23)—that is, the existing mountains were broken up, violently torn apart, and thrust down to the level of a valley.
Consequently, the Nephites had a comparison to judge “whose height is great” against.
    Thus, taking Samuel’s comments as a whole, the land of Promise must have many mountains (not just a few), for Samuel said: “there will be many places which are now called valleys which shall become mountains. Many places. That is, many mountains “whose height is great.”
The area through the heartland of the U.S. and the area of the Great Lakes, including the area of McLane's Land of Zarahemla and nearly all of his land of Nephi, have no mountains at all, often not even hills

    Now in McLane's area of the eastern U.S., like all of the U.S. east of the Rocky Mountains, has no mountains whose height is great—in fact, most of the area, certainly all of your Land of Zarahemla, has no mountains at all! In fact, the highest points in the six states where McKane places his Land of Zarahemla is 1979 feet, 1772 feet, 1670 feet, 1549 feet, 1257 feet, and 1237 feet--hardly a bump in the road!
    David, before you go off on other issues without responding to this and acknowledging that your model does not fit Mormon's description and Samuel's prophecies, which you typically do, you need to find a place for your Land of Promise that matches this single issue of Samuel’s prophecy that the Lord prompted him to speak (Helaman 13:3). After all, mountains do not just disappear or erode tens of thousands of feet in a couple of thousand years unless the Lord is involved, and since this was to be a testament to the Nephites, it is hardly something that would have disappeared.
    However, as far off as that places your location, we will still respond to your comments and However, as far off as that places your location, we will still respond to your comments and critique of our site and of your statements about your maps, with which no one “has ever found a discrepancy." 
    First on this, is a comment about your six Seas you so strongly advocate. 
McKane has an area labeled East Wilderness, which he labels "Lamanites" on another map, that is east of the SeaEast, which means the Nephites owuld have named a place to the West of the EastWilderness with an East name--not consistent with Hebrew/Jewish direcitonal naming and not at all reasonable; Yet, he is not finished, for he labels an area to the North of this East area of Lamanites with the directional name "East Sea." Directional naming is to use directions in their proper orderMcKane uses this labeling improperly and without any system at all as he tries to force directions into his map
 
    Without an understanding of the Hebrew method of naming directional areas, you err in thinking Sea East is different than East Sea, when in reality it is the difference of the translation, since the Hebrews never gave two identical directional locations the same directional label. This is especially true of the “east” which is a significant term in the Hebrew way of thinking that it is the location of God. They would never label God as being in or coming from two separate areas in the same overall location—since the term “east” is never differentiated in the Hebrew language or thinking
    “East” is where God is—and encompasses the entire concept of East—it is never considered in separate parts. To them East is a sacred location, as seen by the method of the Arabs facing east in their daily prayers, our LDS temples with Moroni facing east, etc. Something to the east is in the east; and something as large as a land, or a sea, is not given two separate meanings.
    Consider for a moment that even in our terminology today, there is no different in someone living along our East Coastal area saying "there is a sea to the east," or "there is an Eastern Sea." Both describe the same thing. While we use Atlantic Ocean in our language, before names were given, a sea to the east was a sea in the east, sea east, eastern sea, east sea, etc. It is best not to try and play semantics with words and expressions you seem to not understand.
    Sea East, East Sea, Sea of the East, and the East, Eastern, and even eastward sea, etc., all have the same meaning and connotation to the Hebrew as well as to us. When you try to separate these terms to Sea East being different than East Sea, you are not dealing with a Hebrew way of thinking, but of a westerner—us, and an uninformed us, at that. And in that you do err. But you would not know that unless you were well acquainted with the Hebrew way of thinking, or even an ancient way of talking and thinking. 
    Even when Mormon is giving us locations in his insertion in Alma 22, he does not double up on directions, i.e., even though the area of First Inheritance was west and south  of Zarahemla, he does not clarify that specific direction, sticking with the Hebrew tendency to use on direction at a time to describe a location. When discussing where the Lamanites were located, which at the time (before Capt. Moroni drove them out of the areas north of the narrow strip of wilderness) when Mormon writes: “Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers' first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore” (Alma 22:28)—obviously, he could have been more specific and said “and on the west in the land of Nephi, [to the south] in the place of their fathers' first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore,” but he did not because that is not a Hebrew way of speaking.
Mckane’s Land of Promise, which we will show more discrepancies between his map and the scriptural record in the next article…
    Note: On the above maps we have added info from other of Mckane’s maps on his website to make the viewing easier and more understandable. On his site, you have to look at several maps to get an understanding of his map information that he shows piecemeal
(See the next post, ”Answering a Reader – Part V,” for more information on David Mckane’s model around the Great Lakes of his Land of Promise and our responses to his comments on our blog)

98 comments:

  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  2. 4) You state that Zarahemla has mountains and pointed to a couple of verses that stated the Gadianton warriors lived in a wilderness that had mountains. Nothing to do with Zarahemla. The other verse states that the city of moronihah got covered by a mountain before Christ visit. Once again it has nothing to do with Zarahemla. HILLS AND PLAINS ARE MENTIONED MORE IN THE BOOK OF MORMON THEN MOUNTAINS ARE MENTIONED IN THE BOOK OF MORMON. The only people who lived in the mountains were robbers.

    5) The notion that the mountains mention in the Book of Mormon need to be a certain elevation to qualify as great is your opinion and your opinion only. We live in a day when we understand the mountain ranges and the elevation of their peaks. The Nephites were only aware of and could only compare the greatest of mountains that they knew of. The idea that the Andes mountains are the only mountains that qualify is ridiculous.

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  5. The book of Mormon specifically mentions a WEST SEA and the Book of Mormon Specifically mentions a SEA WEST. It also specifically mentions a SEA EAST and a EAST SEA I'm just going by what the Book of Mormon says.

    1) East Sea Alma 50:8, Alma 50:13, Alma 52:13

    2) Sea East Alma 22:27, Helaman 3:8, Helaman 11:20

    3) West Sea Alma 22:32-33, Alma 50:11, Alma 52:11-12, Alma 53:8, Alma 63:5, Helaman 4:17,

    4) Sea West Alma 22:27, Helaman 3:8, Helaman 11:20

    5) Sea South Helaman 3:8

    6) Sea North Helaman 3:8

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  6. David, There are many reasons why your model doesn't work and Del has laid them out for you. There are several reasons why your mountains simply don't work and the best one is THEY WERE NOT BORN 2,000 YEARS AGO. They are older than 2,000 years.

    When I went on my mission in the Appalachian Mountains I noticed that the rocks in those mountains are horizontal. Even then I was interested in geology. The mountains there are an elevated plain that has subsequently been dissected by rivers. The hillbillies mine coal beds in those mountains today. The BOM says that the mountains would be found in FRAGMENTS upon the earth (Hel 14:22, 3 Nephi 8:18). You don't see this in these mountains because they weren't raised up 2,000 years ago. So that is another nail in your models coffin.

    Del has already mentioned that your mountains are not found in YOUR land of Zarahemla and that is correct. I climbed a number of those hills in the Appalachian mountains and they aren't like the mountains in the west by any means. A Sunday stroll will take you to the top very quickly. There aren't any of exceedingly great height.

    Your model is GARBAGE David, It STINKS, There is NOT ONE THING that matches the scriptural record and Del has done a great job of pointing out your numerous errors. Abandon your model David. We'll keep destroying it at every turn.

    I was thinking lately that this blog now is like a dunking machine at a carnival. David and his model keeps on getting dunked multiple times but he still climbs up to take another dunking. Quite frankly David it's quite fun to see because of your exceedingly great arrogance.

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  7. David, you wrote: " You state that Zarahemla has mountains and pointed to a couple of verses that stated the Gadianton warriors lived in a wilderness that had mountains. Nothing to do with Zarahemla"
    This was answered in your earlier comment. Why don't you read what has already been written? What good is this exercise if you write the same dumb thing over and over again?

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    1. According to the verses you shared the only people who live in mountains were robbers
      3Ne 1:27 3Ne 2:17 3Ne 3:20 3Ne4:1 3Ne8:10,3Ne 1:27 3Ne 2:17 3Ne 3:20 3Ne4:1

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    2. I'm sorry can you summarize your answer as to why the book of Mormon only mentions why robbers living in mountains the verses you shared

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  8. David, you wrote: " The notion that the mountains mention in the Book of Mormon need to be a certain elevation to qualify as great is your opinion and your opinion only."
    The Lord said "great," I take that as meaningful. How is it you don't?. Again, this has already been answered.

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  9. Showing farmland where I place the Book of Mormon is a great Idea the Nephites were excellent farmers
    Enos 1:21
    21 And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses.

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    1. Yes they were great farmers David. On those high mountains they built terraces to do farming. Down near the Westwestwest sea which really was a sea they were able to do farming as well. Again where are you mountains. You just got dunked again. ***Splash***

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    3. Ya those indigenous civilization of Chile during Book of Mormon times were well known to have flocks of goats, cattle, wild goats and horses. Having cattle and horses on mountain terraces is a great idea. Oh wait south America did not have goats cattle and horses until Europeans brought them over. hmmm

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    4. David, They had all the things that are mentioned in the BOM and two that are not mentioned in North America. You want to tell me what the Cureloms and Cummoms are? Just curious. Your model fails again.

      These were very useful animals to the Nephites and so they were draft animals. You have any clue? There are two in South America that fit perfectly. So again and again your model is garbage. You need a new hobby David. How about painting.

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  10. David, you wrote: "The book of Mormon specifically mentions a WEST SEA and the Book of Mormon Specifically mentions a SEA WEST. It also specifically mentions a SEA EAST and a EAST SEA I'm just going by what the Book of Mormon says."
    This, once again, has already been answered. You keep commenting like a broken record. You comment, we answer, you ignore and write it again. Your credibility is non-existent.

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  12. The problem del is you vary rarely quote from scripture to verify your arguments only your opinions.

    And when you do quote scripture it only verifies my arguments and BOM model.

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  13. David- that is all Del has done is quote scripture to you and YOU'VE IGNORED EVERYTHING he has said. Go back and read it. It is YOU WHO HAVE DISREGARDED THE SCRIPTURES. Man o man - you are dense!!!!!

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  14. David: your words directly above are without merit. Just read what everyone else who has weighed in on your comments has said. Besides, if anyone states opinions and not scripture, it is you. Let me give you an example. You have made a great deal out of the hill Cumorah being in your Land Southward and claim that Mormon was writing to the Lamanite king for permission to travel through Lamanite controlled land to get to Cumorah.
    However, the scriptures tell us an entire different story as to the location of the Hill Cumorah: “And it came to pass in the forty and sixth, yea, there was much contention and many dissensions; in the which there were an exceedingly great many who departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land northward to inherit the land. And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers. Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land” (Helaman 3:3-5).
    Now, David, even you with your arrogant stubbornness cannot get around this one: for the hill Cumorah is in that land of many waters, for Mormon tell us so: “And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites” (Mormon 6:4).
    Give it up, David, you have been shot down on every single one of your viewpoints by Mormon!

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    1. They travelled to the land Desolation not Cumorah Dell

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    2. Mormon had to bring his armies from Desolation to Cumorah.

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    3. If you want to go to Cumorah go to New York.
      They have a visitor center next to the Hill Cumorah

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    4. New York has plenty of ponds lakes streams spring etc

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  15. David, you wrote: "And when you do quote scripture it only verifies my arguments and BOM model."
    Now the quote of Helaman and Mormon directly above DOES NOT VERIFY YOUR BOOK OF MORMON MODEL
    Stop making up things--you seem to be a stranger to the truth!

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  16. David, you wrote: "I'm sorry can you summarize your answer as to why the book of Mormon only mentions why robbers living in mountains the verses you shared"
    Because, that is what Mormon is writing about, the Robbers and why they could not be eradicated because they lived in Mountains and secret places--Mormon also mentions they live in the wilderness. For someone who thinks he is quite smart, it is amazing you cannot see that in Mormon's writing.

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    1. Which Mormon are you referring to because the Mormon who fought in the last battles never stated he lived in the wilderness

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    2. Mormon never states he lived in the wilderness now who is making stuff up.

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    3. "Mormon never states he lived in the wilderness now who is making stuff up." David. This statement is an excellent example that shows your complete inability to critically read and respond. Del was quoting Mormon saying that the Robbers also lived in the wilderness.

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  17. This is where the Nephites went to.
    Mormon 3
    5 And it came to pass that I did cause my people that they should gather themselves together at the land a Desolation, to a city which was in the borders, by the narrow pass which led into the land southward.
    Notice Cumorah is not mentioned in this verse but they can easily go down to the land southward or cumorah.
    The verse that states that Mormon went to the land of Cumorah
    Mormon6
    2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would GRANT UNTO US that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

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  18. David, you wrote: “Ya those indigenous civilization of Chile during Book of Mormon times were well known to have flocks of goats, cattle, wild goats and horses. Having cattle and horses on mountain terraces is a great idea. Oh wait south America did not have goats cattle and horses until Europeans brought them over. Hmmm.”
    Response: First of all, I’m not sure what “ya” means. Second, we have already answered your comment that horse and elephant remains have been found in South America. Third, according to archaeologists no such animals have been fund anywhere in the Americas so don’t single out South America. Fourth, you don’t have herds of wild goats “on the farm”—they are wild (Capra aegagrus aegagrus), not domesticated, and are very different from domestic goats (look up Capra aegagrus aegagrus and see how different it is from Capra aegagrus hircus—actually, there are nine species of goat in the world, and many of these are very different from one another, i.e., Caprines are domestic goats, but Bovidae are a much wider range of cloven-hoofed animals, including goats). Fifth, and don’t quote the Rocky Mountain goat as being in your Land of Promise since the Rocky Mountains are way outside your Land of Promise maps, and certainly not within your Land of Zarahemla.

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    1. Cattle horses and goats went extinct in north America some scientist believe they went extinct due to human predation. So the short answer to your question is yes those animals did live in North America.

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    2. The Hopewell made copper goat horn artifacts. Cattle populated the area that Hopewell populated
      see link to see artifact.

      http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2017/02/book-of-mormon-goats-and-cattle.html

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    3. If anybody had heards of goats it was the Hopewell or Nephites however you want to put it.

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    4. See link for Nephite Hopewell Elephants
      http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/11/buried-nephite-city-and-bom-elephants.html

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  19. David - this question has already been answered many times using the scriptures. Cumorah is in the land north. GRANT UNTO US that we GATHER OUR PEOPLE IN THE NORTH TO THE LAND OF CUMORAH. See I can make up interpretation as well as you can. Your interpretation has been destroyed because the Jaredites lived in the north right? Moroni as living at Cumorah when he wrote verse in ETHER 1:1 And now I Moroni, proceed to give an account of those ancient inhabitants who were destroyed by the hand of the Lord UPON THE FACE OF THIS NORTH COUNTRY.

    I don't see your point David. THEY GATHERED IN THE NORTH PERIOD. All they are saying here is they are going to gather somewhere and that is IN THE NORTH TO CUMORAH - your model is garbage and we've been through this many times before. YOU ARE DENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    1. That's not what the verse says. Mormon went to the Lamanites not the other way around
      Mormon6
      2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would GRANT UNTO US that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

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  20. David, you wrote: “Showing farmland where I place the Book of Mormon is a great Idea the Nephites were excellent farmers Enos 1:21 And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses.”
    Response: First, the seeds the Nephites brought with them and planted in the Land of Promise were from Jerusalem (1 Nephi 18:24), which is a Mediterranean Climate—called a Koppen Classification Csa, which is a temperate climate with dry, hot summers, and mild, moist winters; temp range 64ºF to 32ºF. Now compare that to the “farm” land area of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa and Michigan in McKane’s Land of Zarahemla and Land of Bountiful:
    Ohio – (Koppen Classification: Dfa) humid climate; cold winters and humid summers, temp range 86ºF to 15ºF
    Indiana – (Koppen Classification: Dfa) humid, subtropical climate; cold winters and humid summers, temp range 89ºF to 16ºF
    Illinois – humid continental climate; cold winter and hot, humid summers; temp range 87ºF to 9ºF
    Iowa – (Koppen Classification: Dfa) humid climate; cold winters, hot summers; temp range 86ºF to 6ºF
    Michigan – (Koppen Classification: Dfa) humid continental climate; cold winters and hot summers; temp range 83ºF to 14ºF
    The truth of the matter is, the seeds brought by Lehi would not have grown, or if they did, would have grown very poorly for a few years until the seeds/plants could adjust to the different climate and temperatures. This is not what Nephi wrote, for he said their seeds brought from Jerusalem: “that they did grow exceedingly; wherefore, we were blessed in abundance” (1 Nephi 18:24).

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    1. The only thing that we know the Nephites grew was corn wheat and Barley

      The Hopewell in North America grew little barley, may grass same family as wheat they are both grass seeds and they grew corn.

      If there is anything mentioned in the Book of Mormon that cannot grow in North America let me know. From what I can tell everything is covered

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    2. Also the same latitude line where I think Lehi landed is on the same latitude line where you believe Lehi landed but nonetheless everything that we know is grown by the Nephites is grown in North America in abundance.

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  21. David, you wrote: “That's not what the verse says. Mormon went to the Lamanites not the other way around
    Mormon 6:2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would GRANT UNTO US that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle”
    Response: That is what I said and that is what my answer was, which was to gain agreement from the Lamanite king as I have already answered—nothing to do with passing through is land, and if you read my previous comment in answer to you, you would find that the hill Cumorah is in the Land Northward. I will reprint the scripture here again, since you have such a hard time reading our answers: “However, the scriptures tell us an entire different story as to the location of the Hill Cumorah: “And it came to pass in the forty and sixth, yea, there was much contention and many dissensions; in the which there were an exceedingly great many who departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land northward to inherit the land. And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers. Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land” (Helaman 3:3-5).”

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    1. I don't know Del I would disagree with your interpretation. Mormon would not need permission from the lamanite king if he was gathering in his own land. From a strategic point of view it would be better if Mormon did not tell the Lamanite king anything of what they where doing.

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  22. David the scriptures say North. It does not say South anywhere. You are making it up to support your lousy model which is garbage.

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    1. Your making stuff up the word north is not even used in that chapter

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    2. Ether 1:1 says North. What are you reading?

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    3. Mormon chapter 6 and Mormon chapter 2

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    5. This is a great verse to D&C 128

      20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings FROM CUMORAH! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!

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    6. I can't see anywhere that cumorah is South. Ether 1:1 says North and that means it's North.

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    7. No it does not say Cumorah is in the land nortward

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    8. Here is the best location for ripliancum

      Ether Chapter 15 discusses the end of the Jaredite people through war. Two opposing factions fight until the death of all those involved. From the Book of Mormon we can derive the exact location where Coriatumer's army retreated to and camped his army by the waters of Ripliancum.
      Ether 15
      7 And when Coriantumr saw that he was about to fall he fled again before the people of Shiz.

      After one particular battle Coriantumr camps his armies next to the waters of Ripliancum. The waters of Ripliancum are described as large or to exceed all. It’s not described as a sea, lake, or river. All we know is its exceedingly large. This is the only time that exceedingly large is used to describe a water feature but keep in mind sea or lake is not used to describe this water feature.

      8 And it came to pass that he came to the waters of Ripliancum, which, by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all; wherefore, when they came to these waters they pitched their tents; and Shiz also pitched his tents near unto them; and therefore on the morrow they did come to battle.

      The next day the armies battle.

      10 And it came to pass that the armies of Coriantumr did press upon the armies of Shiz that they beat them, that they caused them to flee before them; and they did flee southward, and did pitch their tents in a place which was called Ogath.

      The armies retreat.

      11 And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.

      Coriantumr camps his army next to the Hill Ramah the place were Mormon hid the records. Mormon 6:6 states that Mormon hid the records in the Hill Cumorah. The waters of Ripliancum could be nothing more than Niagara Falls the largest waterfall found in the United States and comparable to the great waterfalls found throughout the world. Hill Cumorah is about 60 miles away from Niagara Falls. The waterfall exceeds all.

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    9. Notice that the jaredite armies go south they are then by the hill Cumorah

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    10. In says North David not South. See Ether 1:1. Your model is wrong

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    11. They died in the North David. Read Ether 1:1.

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    12. During battles they moved south to Hill Cumorah. Then there was a four year pause where all the Jaredites were gathered then the fitting began again.

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  23. my goodness, this is still being disputed? David, just agree to disagree already. Go away, your theory is pure garbage and makes no sense. Enough already. there has to be a site for all of you that think North America is the land of promise. Go there and stop wasting Del's time! And while you're at it, take a grammar class. Your posts are painful to read.

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    1. Im helping del fix his model to agree with scripture.

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    2. It's your model that is garbage. You don't even know anything about ours. We are discussing your crappy model. And I must say it is much worse than I thought. It's entirely fictional.

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    3. "...and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were NEARLY SURROUNDED BY WATER, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward."

      David, one of the biggest holes in your model is that the land Northward can be easily traveled to without using the Narrow Neck.

      Thus, how is your model in harmony with the scriptures?

      Delete
  24. David, you wrote: “Which Mormon are you referring to because the Mormon who fought in the last battles never stated he lived in the wilderness”
    Response: Tell me, David, is English your second language? You seem to have trouble understanding simple statements. I wrote quoting your question: “David, you wrote: "I'm sorry can you summarize your answer as to why the book of Mormon only mentions why robbers living in mountains the verses you shared."
    And I answered:
    Because, that is what Mormon is writing about, the Robbers and why they could not be eradicated because they lived in Mountains and secret places--Mormon also mentions they live in the wilderness. For someone who thinks he is quite smart, it is amazing you cannot see that in Mormon's writing.”
    Now your comment above was: “Which Mormon are you referring to because the Mormon who fought in the last battles never stated he lived in the wilderness”
    So since you have trouble finding things in the scriptural record, let me relate the scripture I was referring to above—and I will explain it so you can easily understand: “And they [the Nephites] were again obliged to return out of the wilderness and out of the mountains unto their own lands, because of the exceeding greatness of the numbers of those robbers who infested the mountains and the wilderness” (Helaman 11:31), which, by the way, was the chapter of Helaman that was under discussion originally to which you commented and I responded.
    But that was not all. As an example: “But behold, when Gadianton had found that Kishkumen did not return he feared lest that he should be destroyed; therefore he caused that his band should follow him. And they [Gadianton Robbers] took their flight out of the land, by a secret way, into the wilderness; and thus when Helaman sent forth to take them [Gadianton Robbers] they could nowhere be found [in the wilderness and in the mountains].
    (Helaman 2:11); also: “And they [Gadianton Robbers] did commit murder and plunder; and then they [Gadianton Robbers] would retreat back into the mountains, and into the wilderness and secret places, hiding themselves that they could not be discovered [in the mountains and in the wilderness], receiving daily an addition to their numbers, inasmuch as there were dissenters that went forth unto them.” (Helaman 11:23); and also: “And it came to pass that it was expedient that there should be a stop put to this work of destruction [of the Gadianton Robbers]; therefore they [the Nephites] sent an army of strong men into the wilderness and upon the mountains to search out this band of robbers, and to destroy them” (Helaman 11:28).
    With so much being said about the Gadianton Robbers also being in the wilderness as well as in the mountains, you ask the absolutely dumb question: “the Mormon who fought in the last battles never stated he lived in the wilderness.”
    David, you have lost all credibility of being a serious scholar of the Book of Mormon, and a theorists with a legitimate view.

    ReplyDelete
  25. David: you wrote, “The Hopewell made copper goat horn artifacts. Cattle populated the area that Hopewell populated see link to see artifact. http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2017/02/book-of-mormon-goats-and-cattle.html.” First of all, your reference takes on to your own webpage, there your reference takes one to the actual source. That is not how scholarly writing works. You should reference the specific source material, which in this case, you completely misquote and misrepresent. As an example, I am copying and pasting directly from your source material, the following regarding the so-called Hopewell copper goat horn artifact:
    “After a thorough review of the evidence in the scientific literature I’VE COMER TO THE CONCLOUSION that three species of bovid–all of them now extinct–lived in what’s now Georgia until the great megafauna extinction, circa 12,000 calendar years ago. The long-horned bison (Bison latifrons) WAS LONG THOUGHT to be ancestral to a species of bison known as Bison antiquus that had horns intermediate in size between those of Bison latifrons and the modern species (Bison bison). Bison antiquus PROBABLY DID EVOLVE from Bison latifrons, but APPARENTLY there was enough differentiation in habitat preference between the two, so that long-horned bison continued to exist even after a segment of that population had evolved into Bison antiquus and spread all across the continent.  On the rest of the continent Bison antiquus  MAY HAVE completely replaced Bison latifrons, but in the southeast both survived, AND PERHAPS occasionally shared the same range and hybridized (I.E., PERHAPS CROSSBRED)” (emphasis added, also the last statement in parenthesis is my words, which is the definition of “hybridized).
    Now, David, the horn you indicate and claim is Hopewell Indian, is dated in your source material as “The carbon date on this specimen approximately equals 14,000 calendar years old,” which makes it at 12,000 B.C. No Hopewell Indians or any others existed in North America or anywhere else at that time (in addition, that is roughly 10,000 years BEFORE NOAH’S FLOOD). Let’s not forget that the Hopewell Indians are believed to have existed from 200 B.C. to 500 A.D. It is also noted at the Hopewell Culture National historical Park: Mound City, regarding this artifact that there were never any mountain goats in Ohio or the area of the Hopewell Indians, which further discounts this idea. Lastly, in looking at hundreds of Hopewell artifacts, this image shows up only once, and is discounted since there were no such animals in the Hopewell region. Lastly, the artifact actually was found in southeast George (according to your source material) which is nowhere near your Land of Nephi, Land of Zarahemla, Land of Bountiful or Lamanite lands. It is part of your Land of First Inheritance.
    Where do you get off using information from the period of 12,000 B.C. to support Nephite or Jaredite existence? That is fallacious, which means for those who do not understand words: “misleading, erroneous, deceptive, false, wrong, untrue, and mythical.” That is, completely wrong, and what we used to call downright lying.

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  26. David, you wrote: “The only thing that we know the Nephites grew was corn wheat and Barley”
    Response: Do you ever read the scriptural record? They also grew neas and sheum (Mosiah 9:9), and the seeds they brought from Jerusalem were numerous. As Nephi said, “we had gathered together all manner of seeds of every kind, both of grain of every kind, and also of the seeds of fruit of every kind” (1 Nephi 8:1). And all of those seeds (they put into the earth, which we had brought from the land of Jerusalem” (1 Nephi 18:24).
    Tell me, David, how many times do you have to be wrong before you get the message? Most people would be embarrassed at being so wrong so many times.

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  27. David, you wrote: “The Hopewell in North America grew little barley, may grass same family as wheat they are both grass seeds and they grew corn.”
    Response: This is absolutely not true! Maygrass is Phalaris caroliniana, which is a species of grass known by the common names Carolina canarygrass and maygrass. It is native to the southeastern United States, and it can be found as a naturalized species along the southern half of the United States to the west coast, as well as northern Mexico and parts of Europe and Australia. It is most often found in moist to wet habitat, such as marshy meadows, and it can thrive in disturbed areas. It is an annual grass reaching a maximum height between 1 and 1.5 meters. The hairy inflorescence is roughly oval in shape and up to 7 centimeters long by 2 wide. Now, you need to keep in mind that not only is this grass not associated with wheat or barley, and when you say the same family; however, wheat is a cereal grain, with the botanical name of Triticum, and its 23 species names are not connected to Phalaris caroliniana (maygrass) as state above. Its only connection is that all grains are considered to have been originally wild grasses—but they are not of the same family.

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  28. David, you wrote: “I don't know Del I would disagree with your interpretation. Mormon would not need permission from the Lamanite king if he was gathering in his own land. From a strategic point of view it would be better if Mormon did not tell the Lamanite king anything of what they were doing.”
    Response: One of our readers said you were “dense.” I’m beginning to think he was right on. You can disagree all you want, but Mormon needed agreement (nowhere does it say permission), i.e., “and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah” (Mormon 6:4) because, as I have already explained and pointed out, Mormon had his army scattered about guarding and maintaining (i.e., defending) other cities in the Land Northward—“and we did maintain the city. And there were also other cities which were maintained by Nephites, which strongholds did cut them off that they could not get into the country which lay before us, to destroy the inhabitants of our land,” which was the role of the Nephite army to keep said cities in the hands of the Nephites and not allow the Lamanites to get a fortified foothold and so they could keep the Lamanties from further advancement northward in the Land Northward. But for this pending battle, Mormon wanted his forces all together, which would give him the best chance.
    In addition, your idea that Mormon would march his entire army through Lamanite lands with only a guarantee of their safety would be military suicide. Obviously, you have never studied military strategies or taken courses at West Point or elsewhere on military tactics, etc. Having been a military commander at one time, there is no way you would ever trust an enemy to move your entire command through land they held with only their pledge they will not attack your open columns, etc.
    Be realistic. Mormon wanted to gather his troops into one body, so he wanted an agreement from the Lamanite king that his different regiments would not be attacked as they moved out of their fortified cities and marched to Cumorah (away from the Lamanites and to the north to Land of Many Waters and the Land of Cumorah—Mormon 6:4). It was his troops vacating the “other cities” that Mormon wanted to thwart and render some safety from a potential Lamanite attack as soon as one regiment or another vacated their more-or-less safe positions. Without being able to gather his entire command into one fighting body, Mormon knew he had no chance to defeat the Lamanites—something he doubted anyway, but held out hope (Mormon 6:4).

    ReplyDelete
  29. David, you wrote; “Ether 15:11 And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.” Coriantumr camps his army next to the Hill Ramah the place were Mormon hid the records. Mormon 6:6 states that Mormon hid the records in the Hill Cumorah. The waters of Ripliancum could be nothing more than Niagara Falls the largest waterfall found in the United States and comparable to the great waterfalls found throughout the world. Hill Cumorah is about 60 miles away from Niagara Falls. The waterfall exceeds all. Notice that the jaredite armies go south they are then by the hill Cumorah
    Response: First if all, a waterfall, even a large one, is not the definition of Ripliancum: “which, by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all.” Since there are no other waterfalls within the area mentioned to compare it with, that would hardly be the meaning; however, there are seas and a river in scripture which would have been the comparison. I have been to Niagara and as impressive as it is, it is not “to exceed all” waters as defined. Secondly, Ripliancum is in the far north of the Land Northward—there is plenty of room to go southward within the northern reaches of the Land Northward—there is never any mention that they went into the Land Southward, so this area is in the Land Norhtward—including the hill Ramah, which is the hill Cumorah, not in the Land Southward as you so erroneously claim!
    Third, the “place called Ogath,” to which they stopped after going SOUTHWARD from Ripliancum (Ether 15:10), Coriantumr’s army, following Shiz’ army, when Shiz camped in the place called Ogath, Coriantumr “did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred” (Ether 15:11), THEY ARE STILL IN THE LAND OF CUMORAH AT THE HILL CUMORAH!
    Fourth, now during the next four years, both sides are gathering all the Jaredits to their two armies (Ether 15:14), then they go to battle (Ether 15:15)—AT THIS TIME THERE IS NO COMMENT ABOUT MOVING FROM WHERE THEY WERE. They then fought the next day (Ether 15:20), and the following day (Ether 15:21), and on the next day they fought again (Ether 15:24), and again the next day (Ether 15:26-27). Then Shiz and his 32 men fled (Ether 15:25), with
    Coriantumr and his 27 men followed and the next day they fought again (Ether 15:25,29). That day these remaining men fought each other and killed each other, with Coriantumr killing Shiz (Ether 15:30-32).
    Now if you read this and pay attention, you find the final few fought less than one day (one day at the most) from the Hill Cumorah (Ether 15:29), but we don’t even know in which direction from the hill Ramah (Cumorah) they moved in that day.
    The point is, they were basically by the hill Cumorah when all of the Jaredites in these final battles fought and died (Ether 15:11-32).
    So your entire argument about Cumorah being in the Land Southward, is totally inaccurate, and your insistence that it is is completely without merit and contrary to Moroni’s descriptions.

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    Replies
    1. I disagree ripliancum being the Niagara falls is a perfect match its right next to the Hill Cumorah.

      Delete
  30. David, you wrote: “Notice that the jaredite armies go south they are then by the hill Cumorah”
    Response: David, for the last time, they are far to the north in the Land Northward, they are at the waters of Ripliancum, from there they go south ONE DAY and Shiz’ army camps in an area called Ogath, and Coriantumr’s army, following that one day, camps at the hill Ramah (Cumorah). One day from the far north in the Land Northward. The Jaredites never went into the Land Southward, and they all died there one day within that last encampment area (see scriptural references in the comment directly above). Limhi’s expedition that went “so far northward” when they found the bones of all these dead Jaredites, which died in these last battles that occurred in the same place over four days! You keep making up your own scenario, but your views are not what Moroni wrote about this.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sorry del but Mormon was near the narrow pass that lead southward when they fought the Lamanites. They were not far northward as you are saying

      Mormon 3
      5 And it came to pass that I did cause my people that they should gather themselves together at the land a Desolation, to a city which was in the borders, by the narrow pass which led into the land southward.
      Notice Cumorah is not mentioned in this verse but they can easily go down to the land southward or cumorah.
      The verse that states that Mormon went to the land of Cumorah
      Mormon6
      2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would GRANT UNTO US that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

      Delete
    2. After they camped at the hill cumorah I was four years later that they gathered there people to have a final battle

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    3. Try and find Cumorah on a map its in New York

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    4. The hill was in the North Ether 1:1

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  31. David, you wrote: “After one particular battle Coriantumr camps his armies next to the waters of Ripliancum. The waters of Ripliancum are described as large or to exceed all. It’s not described as a sea, lake, or river. All we know is its exceedingly large. This is the only time that exceedingly large is used to describe a water feature but keep in mind sea or lake is not used to describe this water feature (Ether 15:7)”
    Response: Finally, you have shown an ability to think through a scripture. You are wrong, but the effort is commendable—it is so refreshing from all the other comments that you make without or with little, thought. However, you misunderstand why Ripliancum is defined—and it has nothing to do with the waters themselves, but that for one of the rare instances, the people actually name an area that the abridger (Moroni in this case) feels there is a need to interpret the name, i.e., “Ripliancum, which by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all.” This is probably because almost all other place names, are names of people (the first to settle, i.e., “Now it was the custom of the people of Nephi to call their lands, and their cities, and their villages, yea, even all their small villages, after the name of him who first possessed them”—Alma 8:7), with the possible exception of the Sidon River, which is given no interpretation, though it is also called the waters of Sidon (Mormon 1:10). However, another instance of defining an unknown word is when Nephi tells us the meaning of the sea that Lehi calls “Irreantum, which, being interpreted, is many waters” (1 Nephi 17:5). Also, Bountiful, “which we called Bountiful, because of its much fruit and also wild honey” (1 Nephi 17:5). We also find an interpretation of “Rameumptom, which, being interpreted, is the holy stand” (Alma 31:21). There is also, “Liahona, being interpreted, is a compass” (Alma 37:38). And also “Rabbanah, which is, being interpreted, powerful or great king” (Alma 18:13). Therefore, nothing can be made of Ripliancum other than it is a large body of water, one that exceeds all.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I disagree del Niagara falls is a perfect fit for its location to the hill cumorah and the fact that its a exceedingly large waterfall

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    2. I disagree with you David it's a lousy fit and Del has done a masterful job of telling you why. You are dense.

      Delete
  32. David, you wrote: “The narrow strip of wilderness separates the land northward from the Southward as described in the Verse. So the narrow strip of wilderness separating the land of desolation from Zarahemla makes complete sense. Since Zarahemla is in the Land Southward. See Ether 9:31 flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land
    southward, which was called by the Nephites Zarahemla.”
    Response; One can only wonder what Book of Mormon McKane reads. The narrow strip of wilderness separates the Land of Zarahemla (or Nephite controlled lands) from the Land of Nephi (or Lamanite controlled lands). It is nowhere near the narrow neck of land, or the Land of Desolaton or the Land Northward. Saying it is borders on telling lies—the scriptural references are not ambiguous. Mormon writes: “And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west -- and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.
    Has anyone been counting McKane’s countless errors?

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    Replies
    1. 4) You state that Zarahemla is in the Land northward north of the Narrow Neck that is not what the scriptures say. The scriptures say Zarahemla is in the land southward south of the Narrow Neck.
      Ether 9:31
      31 And there came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of
      the land, and did poison many people. And it came to pass that their
      flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land
      SOUTHWARD, which was called by the NEPHITES ZARAHEMLA.
      Alma 22:32
      there being a SMALL NECK OF LAND BETWEEN the LAND NORTHWARD and the LAND SOUTHWARD.

      Delete
    2. Do you just pick a couple of words and base your entire arguments on those? Nowhere does Del claim that Zarahemla is in the land Northward. The post you are replying to states exactly the opposite. Please take a critical reading class.

      Delete
  33. David, you wrote: “Its also worth noting that the East Wilderness which was occupied by lamanites until they were kicked out in 72 BC was east of Zarahemla. Up until then lamanites had free reign on the east side of Zarahemla.”
    Response: We are talking about that east wilderness that ran “round about” up the seashore of the Sea East (Alma 22:27), and from which, after the Lamanites were driven out by Moroni had Nephites move into this east wilderness—as Mormon wrote: “And it came to pass that when Moroni had driven all the Lamanites out of the east wilderness, which was north of the lands of their own possessions, he caused that the inhabitants who were in the land of Zarahemla and in the land round about should go forth into the east wilderness, even to the borders by the seashore, and possess the land” (Alma 50:9). And there they built a city, the City of Moroni: “And it came to pass that the Nephites began the foundation of a city, and they called the name of the city Moroni; and it was by EAST SEA; and it was on the south by the line of the possessions of the Lamanites” (Alma 50:13)

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    Replies
    1. Dell Zarahemla is in the land southward a narrow neck seperates the land northward from southward read the scriptures

      4) You state that Zarahemla is in the Land northward north of the Narrow Neck that is not what the scriptures say. The scriptures say Zarahemla is in the land southward south of the Narrow Neck.
      Ether 9:31
      31 And there came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of
      the land, and did poison many people. And it came to pass that their
      flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land
      SOUTHWARD, which was called by the NEPHITES ZARAHEMLA.
      Alma 22:32
      there being a SMALL NECK OF LAND BETWEEN the LAND NORTHWARD and the LAND SOUTHWARD.

      Delete
    2. Del that is not what the Scriptures say try agains

      Alma 50
      9 And it came to pass that when Moroni had driven all the Lamanites out of the east wilderness, WHICH WAS NORTH OF THE LANDS OF THEIR OWN POSESSION, he caused that the inhabitants who were in the land of Zarahemla and in the land round about should go forth into the east wilderness, even to the borders by the seashore, and possess the land.

      Delete
    3. David, "And it came to pass that when Moroni had driven all the Lamanites out of the east wilderness, WHICH WAS NORTH OF THE LANDS OF THEIR OWN POSSESSION" is referring to the lands of the Lamanites. To simplify, "THEIR" is referring to the group just mentioned in the previous clause (ie Lamanites). Please take a course in basic English writing.

      Delete
  34. David, you wrote; "The armies retreat," when referring to Shiz and Coriantumr's battles. Actually, the armies did not retreat. One army fled and the other pursued. The direction of their travel is not often mentioned, though we can account for one day heading southward from Ripliancum, which ended at the hill Ramah (Cumorah) and then one day or less beyond that, but in which direction we are not told. We have nothing more to go on, except our knowledge that the hill Ramah, where the bones of the Jaredites were found by Limhi’s 43-man expedition, was “so far northward” (Alma 22:30). So one day fleeing, even south, from there would not take them anywhere near the southern border of the Land Northward.

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    Replies
    1. Sorry del but Mormon was near the narrow pass that lead southward when they fought the Lamanites. They were not far northward as you are saying

      Mormon 3
      5 And it came to pass that I did cause my people that they should gather themselves together at the land a Desolation, to a city which was in the borders, by the narrow pass which led into the land southward.
      Notice Cumorah is not mentioned in this verse but they can easily go down to the land southward or cumorah.
      The verse that states that Mormon went to the land of Cumorah
      Mormon6
      2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would GRANT UNTO US that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

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    2. You say one day but it does not say how long they fled

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  35. David, you wrote, “I will be using the Hopewell mound fortifications found in New York State and Pennsylvania for archeological evidence for the fortifications described in Alma Chapter 50 and refortified in Alma Chapter 52.”
    Response: First of all, I have been all over that area and frankly, there are almost no mounds that are or could have been defensive fortifications—they are burial mounds, or foundation mounds where wood huts or meeting centers were built on top, etc. Mostly what you have are mounds. According to Ephraim George Squier, these mounds served three purposes—the mound builders “constructed various styles of earthen mounds for religious and ceremonial, burial, and elite residential purposes. These included the Pre-Columbian cultures of the Archaic period; Woodland period (Adena and Hopewell cultures); and Mississippi period” (E. G. Squier and E. H. Davis, Ancient Monuments of the Mississippi Valley, Smithsonian Institution, Washington D.C.)
    In fact, the ancient cultures were called “the Mound Builders,” “Mound City,” etc. It should be noted that the word “mound” does not appear anywhere in the Book of Mormon. Moroni caused “ridges of earth” that encircled something—either a city (Alma 50:2) or his army (Alma 49:4). However, in the entire eastern U.S., no mound encircles any area where a large, complex city would have fit, or even a large bivouacked army, with an except found in Cahokia Mounds State Historic Site, in southern Illinois where the town was protected by a sophisticat4d semicircular fortification system; however, this site was not built until 600 A.D. (during the Late Woodland Period, or as late as the 9th Century A.D. in the Emergent Mississippian culture period) and reached its peak in 1200 A.D. There were of course many Wood Forts in Ohio, but they were during the French Indian Wars of the 17th and 18th centuries.
    It should also be noted that Moroni did not have “burial mounds” built—which is what we find in the eastern U.S., but defensive walls, some of earth with timber on top (Alma 50:2), and others with stone encircling them (Alma 48:8) and also stone walls “round about their cities and the borders of their lands (Alma 48:8), the latter we do not find in the eastern U.S.
    The fortifications generally mentioned in connection with the Mound Builders is in “the so-called hilltop enclosures or fortifications, claimed were obviously intended for purposes of defense; however, the most famous of these the Fort Ancient Culture, did not build their famous “fort” until 1000 A.D., which remained in existence until 1750 A.D. The built many ceremonial mounds and temples, and their weapons were made from bone or stone, and grew three crops: maize, squash and beans. It should be noted that initially the site was thought to be a fort, though later such assumptions were dismissed—it was a ceremonial structure, with Portions of the walls used in conjunction with the sun and moon to provide a calendar system for these peoples.

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    Replies
    1. Del have you ever looked at the evidence for Ammonihah which might be ruins of Pomacocha presented by Priddis? I found it quite interesting that she found a city that from the air looked like a city in a volcano. The earth had been cast up around the city as described in the BOM. I found it most interesting.

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  36. Description of the Hopewell Pollock Stockade
    “It consists of a series of earthen embankments ranging from three to ten feet in height that partially enclose a large, 120-acre, plateau located along Massie Creek.
    “Robert Riordan, an archaeologist with Wright State University, has directed many seasons of excavations at the Pollock Works revealing a complicated site history. The works appear to have been constructed in five major stages beginning as early as AD 50. One of these stages involved the erection of a large, timber stockade along the top of the earthen embankments.”
    When Squier described this site he said with a simple stockade this site would be impregnable. He did not know but archaeological excavation showed that at one time the Pollock Works did have a timber stockade.

    The mound builders made burial mounds but they also made defense walls around their cities.

    As described in the Book of Mormon
    Hopewell/Nephite Indians built mound fortifications as a defense against invading Indian tribes. The Hopewell civilizations matches the Book of Mormon not only because of the timeline, but because of earthen mounds around all their cities, as stated in Alma 50:1.
    Alma 50:1
    1 And now it came to pass that Moroni did not stop making preparations for war, or to defend his people against the Lamanites; for he caused that his armies should commence in the commencement of the twentieth year of the reign of the judges, that they should commence in digging up heaps of earth round about all the cities, throughout all the land which was possessed by the Nephites.
    Alma 49:4
    4 But behold, how great was their disappointment; for behold, the Nephites had dug up a ridge of earth round about them, which was so high that the Lamanites could not cast their stones and their arrows at them that they might take effect, neither could they come upon them save it was by their place of entrance.
    Alma 50:2-4
    2 And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities.
    3 And he caused that upon those works of timbers there should be a frame of pickets built upon the timbers round about; and they were strong and high.
    4 And he caused towers to be erected that overlooked those works of pickets, and he caused places of security to be built upon those towers, that the stones and the arrows of the Lamanites could not hurt them.

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  37. fought the Lamanites.”
    Response: They were not far northward as you are saying when then you quote Mormon 3:5 showing Mormon was by the narrow neck in the Land of Desolation—which was in 360 A.D., THEN you skip to Mormon 6:2 where it talks about Mormon write to the Lamanite king about gathering at Cumorah, which is in 384 A.D. Now in those intervening 24 years, David, the Nephites fought running battles away from the narrow neck into the north countries as we have already outlined in these comments for you, including retreating through several cities Mormon says they were “swept off b yh them d[Lamanites] even as dew before the sun” in this retret” (Mormon 4:18). As they retreated northward in the Land of Desolation, they came to Boaz, then fled from there (Mormon 4:22), in which Mormon says “And now I, Mormon, seeing that the Lamanites were about to OVERTHROW THE LAND, therefore I did go to the hill Shim, and did take up all the records which Ammaron had hid up unto the Lord” (Mormon 4:23). They then fled to the city of Jordan, and “whatsoever lands we had passed by, and the inhabitants thereof were not gathered in, were destroyed by the Lamanites, and their towns, and villages, and cities were burned with fire; and thus three hundred and seventy and nine years passed away” (Mormon 5:5)—they are nowhere near the narrow neck at this point, but had been drive “back” which can only be northward since the land around the narrow neck is “narrow” and would only allow movement backward, or northward. “And those whose flight did not exceed the Lamanites’ were swept down and destroyed” (Mormon 5:7).
    David, the Nephites are fleeing northward, away from the hotly pursuing Lamanites, for several years—let’s not play games. The Nephites are deep into the Land Northward by this time, maintaining cities (Mormon 5:4), which cities or strongholds “did cut them off that they could not get into the country which lay before us, to destroy the inhabitants of our land” (Mormon 5:4).
    Your argument is simply wrong, wrong, wrong, and without merit at all.

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  38. David, you wrote above about the Pollock stockade as one of your Hopewell mound fortifications, and quoted: “When Squier described this site he said with a simple stockade this site would be impregnable.“
    Response: However, the wall is only three feet tall in places—which is not a fortification at all and certainly not impregnable. The highest points are 10 feet tall. This earthen wall sided only one-fourth of the village, the other three sides were dependent on terrain and open. Eventually, the wooden stockade “was burned by its builders in a great crescent of fire” (The Ancient Ohio Trail [AOT] Project, University of Cincinnati/Newark Earthworks Center, Ohio State University). None of this matches Mormon’s descriptions and the work Capt. Moroni did.
    Also, we find that biological anthropologist Dana Beehr reports that there were 43 individuals buried at the Utica and Albany mound sites in Illinois and 38 individuals from the Hopewell Mound Group in Ohio—these two regions have long been thought to be key players in the development of what has been known as the Hopewell Interaction Sphere, a widespread and significant cultural phenomenon involving trade and exchange during the Middle Woodland time period [but] It is now recognized that the Hopewell Interaction Sphere was not a unified phenomenon, that interaction was probably carried out at the personal rather than the regional level, and that different classes of goods probably moved by a variety of small scale processes.” It is also interesting that these Hopewell people (whom McKane claims are Nephites) were matrilocal, which means that the husband goes and lives with the wife’s family and community—which is totally contrary to the Nephite/Hebrew/Jewish belief and way of life.

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  39. Iterry: Yes, I have seen the ruins of Pomacocha. Priddis was right—these were heaps of earth thrown up all around the city to such a height, it not only looks like the city (from the air) is within a volcano, but the earthen wall was so high, no one could have thrown or shot arrows over it as Mormon describes—far more accurate to the scriptural record that McKane’s so-called mound fortification which, in some cases, were only three feet high.

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  40. David, you wrote: “You say one day but it does not say how long they fled”
    Response: Moroni makes it quite clear:
    Vs8 they were at Ripliancum.
    Vs9 the fought a battle there
    Vs10 Coriantumr’s army flees southward to Ogath
    Now how far did you want them to go before they pitched their tents? In all other instances in this record, the flights lasted one day or less. To suggest they traveled longer than a day has no scriptural support—so one day would be the distance of travel in light of no different comment.

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  41. David, you wrote: “Del that is not what the Scriptures say try agains Alma 50:9 And it came to pass that when Moroni had driven all the Lamanites out of the east wilderness, WHICH WAS NORTH OF THE LANDS OF THEIR OWN POSESSION, he caused that the inhabitants who were in the land of Zarahemla and in the land round about should go forth into the east wilderness, even to the borders by the seashore, and possess the land.”
    Response: Perhaps you need a lesson in grammar before you read any more of the scriptural record. When a noun is introduced (Lamanites) the information that follows (which was north of the lands of other own possess) refers back to that noun. That is, the “east wilderness” was “north of the Lamanite lands.” Before you start spouting off about what something does or doesn’t say, you need to be better educated in what you are discussing. In English, you cannot state a clause that is hanging out there without a subject to which it is tied. It cannot be tied to the Nephites since that term is not stated, and it can’t be tied to Moroni, because “Lamanites” is introduced after Moroni, changing the subject. Therefore, this arrangement agrees with what Mormon earlier says in Alma 22, that the Land of Nephi is in the south, the narrow strip of wilderness north of it, then the Land of Zarahemla north of the narrow strip, and in the east is a wilderness on the Zarahemla side of the East Sea in which the Lamanites lived in tents, etc.
    The funny thing is, you quote a scripture that doesn’t say what you claim and you don’t even know it. I would be curious to know who you are, what your background is, what kind of schooling you have had, and if English is your primary language, since your poor English, spelling, etc., leaves a large gap in your credibility and therefore, your believability.

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  42. David, you wrote: “Dell Zarahemla is in the land southward a narrow neck separates the land northward from southward read the scriptures.”
    Response: You sound like a parrot. You keep saying the same thing over and over again as though you believe that if you say it often enough people will believe it. There is no place in the scriptural record that says or implies that the Hill Cumorah is in the Land Southward. There is no even another theorist who claims that. You don’t have a leg to stand on.
    The problem is, David, you have turned MY blog into a confrontational work and that is not what this is about. You must not have served a mission, for there you are taught that confrontation, arguing, debating is contrary to the Spirit of Truth. So I am offering you one last chance here to either be reasonable and recognize that if you have a viewpoint and it is COUNTERED, then go on to something else. Repeating what has already been answered and shown to be in error, whether you agree or not, ends that conversation unless you have something to add to it not already covered. You don’t add to your credibility or to your point by continuing to parrot the same information that has already been shown to be in error.

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  43. David, you wrote: “SO either way if its north of the Lamanites or the Nephites its still east of Zarahemla.”
    Response: David, you are waffling. The comment you made was that the east wilderness was NORTH of the LAND OF ZARAHEMLA. It is not, so your comment above once again does not acknowledge your error.
    As for the east wilderness, no one has ever said it wasn’t east of the Land of Zarahemla. It is also east of the Land of Gideon, which was east of the Land of Zarahemla. It is along the seashore of the East Sea, where once the Lamanites were driven out and south back into their own land, the Nephites built cities along that seashore where the east wilderness had been, one of which was called the city of Moroni. None of this is what you have on your map, which makes your map wrong—which you have the east wilderness far to the north and beyond the East Sea, which again is wrong, and that was the point of this initial discussion.

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  44. DAVID: YOUR REDUNDANT AND REPETITIVE COMMENTS ARE NO LONGER WELCOME HERE SINCE THEY ADD NOTHING TO OUR OVERALL PURPOSE OF DISCUSSING THE SCRIPTURAL RECORD. YOUR 22 POSTS ON OUR BLOG IN ONE DAY WITH NOTHING BUT REPEATED ARGUMENTS THAT HAVE REPEATEDLY BEEN ANSWERED IS A DISTRACTION TO OUR READERS AND A WASTE OF TIME FOR US.

    IF YOU KEEP POSTING, WE WILL SIMPLY ERASE THEM. WHEN THE CURRENT SERIE ANSWERING YOUR COMMENTS IS CONCLUDED IN A FEW DAYS, WE WILL AGAIN LOOK AT YOUR COMMENTS—IF THEY ARE NEW MATERIAL, WE WILL RESPOND TO THEM, IF NOT, YOU WILL BE PERMANENTLY REMOVED FROM THIS BLOG AS AN ANNOYANCE

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